Collateral Damage...!!

[AFF]

Yes, Official, The Islanders sneaked a flaky win on Saturday, thanks for asking.

 

Yes, the Turks to the North and the U.S.-backed Kurds up there, too. Not that oil has anything to do with anything but it's a good job there's no oil in Northern Iraq. Oh. Hang on a minute....

 

Incidentally, did you see the brief reference on the news to the discovery of a terrorist training camp in Northern Iraq with pamphlets by Bin Laden last week? Clear links to International Terrorism, you might think. No? You didn't? I'm not surprised as the camp is in the area of the country controlled by said Kurds.

 

Democracy. One man, one vote, eh? The Shi'ites in the South, the Kurds in the North, the Ba'athists in the middle. a few other tribes scattered around. That will be an interesting transition to observe.

 

The Middle East. 21 of the 22 member states of the Arab League have voted and declared the invasion of Iraq to be illegal. That's a surprise. One would have thought that the liberation of an oil-producing country, under the rule of a dictator, and the gift to the people of democracy, by 300,000 infidel Western troops would be welcomed by the neighbouring oil-producing countries, ruled by dictators, where the notion of democracy is vote for me or don't vote.

 

The Weapons of Mass Distraction. I had an interesting exchange on here with Badger[?] a few weeks ago concerning the method of destruction of the Al Samoud 2 missiles. He was sceptical at my suggestion that a steam-roller might be the best method. It turns out that I was right about the first 55 that Saddam destroyed under the supervision of the U.N. weapons inspectors. The remaining 54 have, presumably, been destroyed since so that objective has been achieved.

 

If no other WoMD are discovered, it might bring to the fore the debate about the legality of the invasion in the first place. I imagine that the two lunatics can rely upon the support of the remaining countries in the Middle East, the U.N. Security Council, France, Germany, Russia and China, if any of the tiny minority of namby-pamby, pinko, do-gooders try to bring that one up, mind you.

 

I notice that those on here who were most vociferous in their support of the "Let's go in and bomb the b@stards" campaign 6 weeks ago have gone quiet lately. Perhaps Littlejohn is on holiday. Or maybe they have have realised that it's a horrible messy business and all is not quite as it may seem.

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Maybe those "who were most vociferous in their support of the 'Let's go in and bomb the b@stards' campaign 6 weeks ago" have just got a bit bored of reading certain people's (not you I might add) ill-informed view of events and have decided to just sit back and watch, knowing that looking back in a year's time, they might, just might, have been right all along!!

 

Saying that, those fiercely against the war (EFMTFTV, GHA, AFF) have barely mentioned it themselves on the SACFC General Forum this last week!!

 

Littlejohn's in tomorrow, btw! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 

 

[pabird]

I was against the war But not a peacenik

Now we are at war then I am for our lads especially the manner in which they have carried off their responsibilities(our lads that is)

But although I have gone with the (dodgy) WEST/PAL vote I am not a democrat

But above all else Ill get the last apple out of the barrel before I agree to that greasy [****!!****] Chirac getting back in on oil,construction and engineering works despite that slippery lying nutter Blairs attempts to make peace in Europe

Should we feel vindictive against the French? bloody right we should they have had a free ride since dropping their unfired rifles circa 1940/41 and its about time they paid the piper

 

 

 

[Big J R]

I loved the snippet in the Sunday press about Bush ordering the B.52's to avoid France and fly over Spain on their way too and from Iraq, so that the Frogs couldn't turn round at some stage, and ask the U.S. to, 'Please don't fly through our airspace !'

 

Each round trip now costs the American Tax payer £30,000 and the journey time is increased by 2 hours !

[Ofiicial]

surprisingly arrogant post may I say Mr Zeal......are you suggesting that the only views that are not boring are those of your self and others who share your view....if that is so....lets close the forum...there's little point in debate if there is only one view....

 

I also suspect that it will be very hard in the future for anyone to say that they were 'right' about these events......

[AFF]

Morning O. A couple of small points.

 

Never, ever, ever, should you suggest to Zealster that a forum should be closed down. Not even in jest. You may find this difficult to believe, Official, but C.Z. is a 'Moderator'. In a closed election, the two chaps on The Saints sub-division of the Canvey Island Message Board elected him to green status. His first exercise of power was to close a thread, a whimsical thread admittedly, a momentary-light-relief-from-the-heavier-issues-of-this-world thread for sure, which was approaching the 1000 reply mark. It bored him.

 

Talking of Imperialist lap-dogs, I caught the tail-end of a debate between Jon Snow and some politico last night on the Channel 4 news. They were talking about the reconstruction of Iraq. The thrust was that having liberated the country, it is entirely right for U.S. [and the odd British, no doubt,] companies to be awarded the contracts to rebuild the place. Iraq can pay for it, of course. Not many people know this but it has the second largest oil resources in the world you see. Loadsamoney.

 

It could have been a throw-back to the 19th Century when the sun never set on the British Empire. I wonder what these people really think.

 

In terms of 'rightness', I fear that those who opposed this war on the grounds of no just cause; with concern at its immediate aftermath and the longer-term consequences; and who felt that the most dangerous man on the planet lives nowhere near the Middle East, will be seen to have 'had a point'.

 

 

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Hi Official,

 

I was referring to the level of "debate" we've had to endure on the SACFC Forum, not the one on here which in the main part is well-informed and interesting.

 

The point I've been trying to make to AFF and co until I'm blue in the face is that the opposite to being anti-war is not necessarily pro-war. I am not pro-war. I'm just not anti-war.

 

No-one likes war. War is quite horrific. But war is also often necessary. And, rightly or wrongly, I believe that to be the case this time.

 

And whether this war was waged because of oil, or weapons of mass destruction, or whatever, if it rids the world of Saddam Hussein and finally liberates Iraq from a quite horrific regime, then I believe that the end will justify the means.

 

 

[pabird]

So we are to assume AFF that you would be all for the fraction,corruption,bias free UN to sort out the commercial contracting in Iraq

Come on, the French and German one state outfit would not leave enough work for Bob the builder to keep busy for a week

Let the USA the UK and AUSTRALIA and IRAQ sort out the workload and find a more efficient unit than the UN to sort the politics, say Mrs Blair or Railtrack or even Peter Ridsdale

The war should never have happened but it did, A vile dynasty has been destroyed IE the tune has been played now the piper(s) get paid

[AFF]

Hi CZ.

 

Who said "The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with oil" and "Tone knows the links between Iraq and International Terrorism" and "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" and "2nd U.N. Resolution? Who needs it" and "Saddam is a bad man, therefore he should be removed from office".

 

Here's a clue. You.

 

Hi pabird.

 

So here's what will happen. Saddam will be 'removed from office', arrangements can be made for democratic elections, our boys can come home, Iraq can be re-built by companies from the countries of the 'Coalition of the Willing', stuff the U.N., stuff the Arab League, the world is a safer place and everyone will live happily ever after because we 'won'.

 

I don't think that it will be quite like that, somehow.

 

 

[Colin Zeal EFM]

So AFF, a few questions.

 

* Do you believe Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?

 

* Do you believe Iraq has links to International Terrorism?

 

* Do you think Saddam should be 'removed from office'?

 

A simple 'yes' or 'no' to each will suffice.

 

 

[AFF]

You will need to get up a little earlier in the morning Zealster.

 

Iraq clearly has [had] Weapons of Mass Distraction. Following the Gulf War, they were permitted to have missiles with a maximum range of 150 kms. Beyond that range, missiles are classed as 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. The U.N. Weapons Inspectors found 109 Al Samoud 2 misssilies with a range of 183 kms. In the weeks before the invasion, under their supervision, Saddam destroyed 55 of these missiles before the Inspectors were recalled from Iraq in the light of the impending war. The U.N. Weapons Inspectors had reported that Saddam was generally co-operating with their search of the country.

 

The British Intelligence Service reported to Tone just before the invasion that there are no links between Saddam and "International Terrorism". On balance, therefore, no.

 

Yes, I think that Saddam is a bad man. Do I think that an invasion of Iraq by non-U.N. sanctioned forces to 'remove him from office' is a good or wise thing? No.

 

 

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Thank you!

 

Oh, and 8.25am is early enough for me! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 

 

[Ofiicial]

Morning Chaps......

 

I wasn't offended Colin and I wasn't having a swipe at you in particular...if I was it was tongue in cheek.............

 

Good heavens....close the Forums.....they're the only thing that keeps me from the retirement home that the kids keep threatening me with......anyway............

 

All great stuff and I suspect more to come.....as for the Iraq up-to-date-situation as I see it......to be frank I agree and/or disagree with most of the views and find myself somewhat on the fence with the main issues.....surprisingly so I'm afraid.....

 

On the one hand, subjectively, I would like to see the UN mop up the mess in Iraq just to get the troops back home....

 

On the other hand....being somewhat more objective....I agree that the dastardly French/German Euro State should be kept away from all of the spoils of war for obvious reasons.....I suspect that we are also going to find out that both of our 'euro allies' have been supplying munitions of some form or other to Iraq.....munitions which are now being used to kill and maim our troops....the oil deals with France/Iraq have been well documented anyway.....nice to see that lot go down the pan......3 billion was it.....he he

 

As to Saddam and ''World Enemy Numero Uno''....dont think so somehow......did you see the TV pics of the chemical find......well....hardly 'Blofeld' stuff was it....a few rusty old oil drums and some sand bags.....I know it doesn't take much of that stuff....even so......

 

Again on the other side of the debate....yes it was a terribly repressive regime... as we all knew and as the pictures shown to us are beginning to prove.......even so......I could compile a list of other Nations and other Despots that, in my opinion, would warrant much closer attention than the 'Mad Arab'.......

 

One wonders why Peter Foster aka 'Our Tone'....hasn't taken issue with Mugawbe as he and his murderous tribal factions slaughter our kith and kin and grab their farms that have been in their families for generations......maybe we'll do them in on the way home......we could also do Libya....Syria.....Turkey....(might as well)......quick diversion over the Balkans just to check on them as well and the yanks could do North Korea on their way home for good measure.....perhaps even a slight detour over Indonesia.....

 

Whilst all this is going on of course...Bin Laden remains as elusive as ever (probably living it up in the Saudi Royal Palaces)....he's probably shortly to be joined by the fleeing...'over the hill'.... Saddam Gang carrying suitcases of Dosh to be distributed to the cause of Islam and 'Queenie Cherie' is to defend the Hooked Cleric against his deportation order.......

 

As you can see....it goes on and on and everywhere we look there is a cause for war and 'liberation'.......in that respect, objectively.... I agree with Colin's views.....subjectively I agree with AFF.....we should never have gone there in the first place......

 

Off the fence....now we are there...blast the place into submission and let the spoils of war be divided amongst the Nations that waged it... and paid for it... in monetry terms and loss of life......

 

What price the Russians in on the 100 billion reconstruction carve up......odds on I'd say.....

 

[Big J R]

Morning Guys.

 

It's all pretty academic now anyway. The deed is done as they say, and if us and the Yanks have done anything good at all, we've shown the rest of the world that you don't p**s around with free English speaking nations !

 

Incidentally, could Saddam's palaces, if not completely wrecked by the US forces, be used to house illegal assylum seakers we have here. I bet they wouldn't get the same amount of benefits that good old Tone is providing them with !

[pabird]

I am happy to add the Arab league to the short list of countries involved (should be) in the rebuild and you will note that I had included Iraq

And the UN for me yes stuff the UN until there is a genuine United Nations

You tell me where outside of policing (mute policing) the UN have achieved anything of note where a peoples are being butchered by their own corrupt and or evil goverment or local disputes where money was not involved(Somalia? Eritria? back in time to Uganda?)

Paid by results they could not buy Derby County

I would be more than seriously upset to see idiot Blair encouraging France back into the Iraq scene be that via UN or EU

Forget the British Empire that was then this is now and I would trust the UK and the USA (in the full glare of world wide publicity) allied to the new Iraq goverment tied into the Arab league than I would trust old Europe and its cynical old boy network full of hiders and sliders like Chirac

 

[pabird]

PS. Pakistan V India (weapons of mass destruction) Korea (weapons of mass destruction) China T-MAN Square basic human rights etc

UN = Useless Notion until proven otherwise

 

[AFF]

A busy afternoon but I can spare a few minutes.

 

What's done is done. The Coalition of the Willing is on the brink of achieving it's declared aims. No, I don't believe that 'we' should have invaded in the first place but that is now history.

 

Suppose that Saddam is 'removed from office' tomorrow or by the week-end. The view seems to be 'to the victor, the spoils'. In the form of what? Rebuilding contracts? Cheaper oil? Consultancy Services?

 

O.K. Let's go with that for a moment. For how long will a U.S/U.K. 'peace-keeping force' be required to remain in Iraq? 12 months? Try 5 years, minimum. How will it be in Iraq for that period? A peaceful transition to democracy? I don't think so. Try Belfast 1968-98 and then muliply the picture by 20. What will the remaining Arab states and in particular arab 'extremists' be doing during that period? Muliply the accumulating Belfast picture by 10.

 

Now look at 'cost' in whatever currency you choose.

 

Now consider the United Nations [sic]. Is the world a better place with a credible U.N.? The answer has to be 'yes', warts and all. At the start of the war, Bush and Blair said following one of the Camp David summits that the U.N. would be brought in to oversee the return of the country to the Iraqi people.

 

If I were an Adviser to the lunatics, the option of handing the whole thing over to the U.N. and getting the hell out of there would be an increasingly attractive alternative.

[Ofiicial]

I'm not sure that we will find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq......when put to the test the whole ragbag setup proved just to be another third world.... brass general's army did it not......also seems as though the 'chemical find' was just another red herring.....

 

As to the last post from AFF....well....hard to argue against the logic of it......maybe on face value after weighing up all the pros and cons.... it would be better to get out of it and let the UN and possible the Arab Nations collectively put the place back together......but.....if I recall...Congress has voted the 100 billion aid programme on the condition that the Frogs and the Krauts don't get any of it......that will throw a spanner in the works.....

 

Blair and Bush have stated that free elections will follow....what that means then is that the Baath party are free to stand in those elections....must be if we're talking a free democracy here.....(unless we outlaw them and that's hardly democratic is it) what happens if they gain power....are we gonna get them out again.....

 

I said before....Saddam for Abdul......!!...there'll never be peace in the middle east........there will never be a stable democracy in the middle east.....did you see all those peace loving ordinary Iraqi's ransacking and looting on the box.......great stuff.....

 

on the other side of the coin...if the ayatollahs get hold of the place it will go straight back to the middle ages and represent a much bigger fundamentalist threat than the 'Mad Arab' ever did........crazy....crazy old world...........

[pabird]

HILLSBOROUGH (Reuters) - George W. Bush and Tony Blair have endorsed a "vital role" for the United Nations in Iraq.

 

 

London and Washington hope their agreed vision of the postwar stages in Iraq will placate anti-war nations such as France, Germany and Russia, and appease widespread international suspicion of U.S. motives in Iraq.

 

 

"We are of course agreed, as we say in our joint statement, that there will be a vital role for the United Nations in the reconstruction of Iraq," Blair told a news conference on Tuesday at his summit meeting with Bush in Northern Ireland.

 

 

Bush used the same words, and added he wanted Iraq to move fast towards establishing an interim authority of Iraqis.

 

 

"We will move as quickly as possible to place governmental responsibilities under the control of an interim authority composed of Iraqis from both inside and outside the country," Bush told the news conference at Hillsborough Castle.

 

 

"The interim authority will serve until a permanent government can be chosen by the Iraqi people," he added.

 

 

"Rebuilding of Iraq will require the support and expertise of the international community. We are committed to working with international institutions, including the United Nations, which will have a vital role to play in this task."

 

 

But when pressed on what precisely the U.N. role would be, Bush mentioned only humanitarian work and "suggesting" people for the interim authority.

 

There you go AFF really good people at heart?

If we are seeking a top of the pops in snide attitude and self engrandisment Ill take Mr,Blair, Bush may appear thick but Blair is a proven non achieving over rated man who!s track record will place him in history as the no 1 con man ever to reside in no 10

As with N.Ireland.Africa with its tribal traditions plus the League of Arab nations the only people in the long run who can bring their countries peace and prosperity are the peoples of that country. now and again they need help

Now let all right thinking people get on the Palistinian case which if ever finnally settled would be the most influential marker in long term middle eastern peace

[AFF]

Hi pabird.

 

Yes, an interesting statement from Hillsborough. A very different emphasis from the 'private briefing' [whatever that means] given by Condominium Rice in the States last week. As usual, these people are sufficiently vague to leave themselves lots of leeway. The thing is that it's bought by people like Littlejohn and his 'readers'.

 

I'm with you save for one piece of 'insurance'.

 

If it's to be the people of '..that country....(who are the only people) who can bring ...peace and prosperity...', the wise man makes sure that there is distance from them when it goes wrong! That way he comes back as the good guy rather than the lunatic who screwed it up in the first place.