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carjam

Attendance Figures: Oh Dear

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Err, re that Braintree fan. (Steve Chesham, I know them well) Correct you are a friendly club with friendly fans. I spent the second half at Stonebridge Rd talking to a couple of them behind the Gravesend goal. Really nice people and really gracious in defeat. <p>But

Braintree will never be a long-term force in non-league soccer until<p>· They get a bigger ground

· Southend, Canvey, Billericay, Romford, West Ham, Chelmsford and all the other local sides with more potential no longer exist.

· There is a population explosion in Braintree

· The Earth stops spinning<p>

Sorry but enjoy your good times whilst they last.<p>Carjam

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Braintree district council with a population of 130,000 (with 42000 in the town and adjoining districts)is considerably more populous than Rushden and Irthlinborough combined and larger than Billericays 30000. Does the ground have to hold more than 3000? I wonder if Carjam has plucked his notions from out an orifice where the sun don't shine.

To see populations click the BDC link at:

<p>[ 05 November 2001: This message was edited by: Iron knob ]</p>

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Braintree district council with a population of 130,000 (with 42000 in the town and adjoining districts)is considerably more populous than Rushden and Irthlinborough combined and larger than Billericays 30000 <hr></blockquote><p>You're a little way off with your numbers, Iron Knob, Billericay's population is about 38,000. The challenge for Billericay is to attract fans from the other towns in the district, Billericay is part of Basildon district, total population 170,000 plus, number of Ryman/DM league clubs 1! <p>Am getting a bit pedantic here, the simple truth is that IMO none of the Essex clubs at our level are capable of playing at a much higher level than we now do. I fully expect Canvey to reach the conference in the next couple of years, but I also expect that they will struggle to stay there for more than a couple of seasons. Similarly I cannot see the likes of Braintree and Billericay ever becoming much more than Yo-yo clubs like, for example, Sutton.

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<img src="graemlins/zornig.gif" border="0" alt="[zornig]" />

And what makes you think Canvey will not stay up for more then a couple of seasons IF promoted this season??? <img src="graemlins/images/icons/confused.gif" border="0" alt="confused" />

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Simon BTFC<p>yeah fair post, certainly not pedantic, The point I was making is to question the relevence of the size of town, whether it be 25000 like Rushden or 80000 like Worthing Sussex,in modern day soccer, If you have a multi-millionaire Chairman who wants to take your club under his wing (re: Rushden & D) that Is of considerably more consequence. The same applies to the crowd limitation on the ground you operate from. If you average 500 what is wrong with a 3000 limit stadium? As was discussed earlier on another thread, what appears more important when non-league attendances are considered is how close you are situated to London. The clubs in the metropolis definitely pull less than those out in the shire counties. In that respect Braintree being 45 miles from London is better placed than most. By the way Carjam Southend is 35 miles from Braintree and are of no consequence to us whatsoever, which makes me feel you've never been to this part of Essex The closest premier status clubs to us are Bishops Stortford and Heybridge Swifts (both 15 miles). Colchester or Ipswich at home are considered to affect our gate the most.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> And what makes you think Canvey will not stay up for more then a couple of seasons IF promoted this season??? <hr></blockquote><p>I didn't say you wouldn't stay up for more than a couple of seasons, I said you would struggle to do so. <p>The original point was that none of the clubs (save Aldershot) in our division have big attendances - and, despite your cup success last season Canvey do not appear to be attracting new support in large numbers. My view is that Jeff King will only be able to take your club so far, and unless the interest in the club grows significantly I can't see you sustain that level of success.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> ALDERSHOT you are not of this league and I expect all your fans wonder just why you are still here <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, how right your are carjam. <img src="graemlins/cry.gif" border="0" alt="cry" /> <p>But I wonder how long we can sustain this support if we stay in this division much longer, some of the support may eventually fade away if we stagnate here much longer.<p>On the plus side most teams in this division seem to be seeing an overall increase in gate. Good thing for NL football as a whole. <p>I'm not sure many of the teams have potential for the league in this division - maybe Sutton & Gravesend ?<p>The rest could all probably survive in the conference, purely on the increase away support that you'd get from the better supported teams that are there like Yeovil etc.

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Chris. You can’t blame Aldershot for being a little timid in their approach to moving up through the league. The last thing they would want is to end up bankrupt again. Kingstonian are in deep trouble and Dover Athletic are in either deeper trouble. Anyhow if they won ALL their games it would boring ultimately for you also. They are doing very well, but are up against 3 or 4 really good sides this season. Loosing to Gravesend, Sutton, Grays and Chesham is no surprise (they are all good sides). Expect to loose more. You will still be challenging. If not Gravesend I hope you win it. The support will stay as long as you are involved. And you are.<p>Iron Knob. Looks like you’ve been caught fiddling the figures. This isn’t the FA Cup you know. Oh and don’t expect to win that Dunmow Flitch either. Thanks Simon for sorting that one out. Correct about Southend though. Their gates I shouldn’t imagine affect anybody to any degree. Perhaps Southend Manor. So come on Iron Knob, accept the facts. Try that thread ‘ Do You Concede Yet’. Pop back there and put your team at the end of it.<p>Canfan. I can’t put it better than Simon. Hold on tightly to Jeff King. When he goes so do you. Can’t see him going though. If he was going to loose interest he would have done so when you were relegated, to my surprise, from Div 1 a few seasons back. Canvey MUST find more support though. Things will become more expensive every time you fail.<p>Car Jam

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Well said, Carjam.<p>My suspicion is that clubs which survive long-term in the conference all have an average attendance of at least 1,000 (and even that is no guarantee of survival). In order to survive in the Conference for more than a couple of years you need that sort of potential. My guess is that only a handful of Ryman Clubs can achieve that.<p>As for the Shots, I believe that our 'natural level' is the Conference. That doesn't mean that we deserve to be in the Conference (you only deserve to be in the Conference if you get there on merit) - just that if we did eventually get to the football league - success would mean staying there.

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Agreed, that gives the 'Fleet' a chance then. They certainly had that before during our Conference years and a bit to spare if my memory of those days serves me well. There are some very long trips in the Conference though so how much away support may well be of no great consequence. Away support in the Ryman seems to be limited to a handful of clubs.

Aldershots crowd size is way above that though. In fact the support there has been amazing. Scarboro and Chester's gates have fallen to very low levels. Not sure about Barnet and Hereford's and Doncaster have like you been an exception. There is a big difference though. Those clubs just went down. They did not have to play in the Ryman third division. It's becoming clear though that there are some good sides at this level. It doesn’t matter how big your club is moving on from here is never going to be easy.

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I agree with Andy & Carjams statements.<p>I would think the Shots natural level is the conference/lower half of Div3 & I would imagine the crowds to be around 2,000 regardless of what division we were in unless we were doing particuarly well at the end of a season.<p>My point was that if we continue to just stay in touch all season with the title but never look like winning it, after a few year I think our support will fall, as Andy said the earlier days sense of adventure is wearing off, and revisiting the same old grounds season after season.<p>The team though have to earn promotion, and from what I've seen this season, that so far deserves to be Gravesend.

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Bizzarely enough, I think Grays are the best team I have seen us play. Whether they're consistently playing that well or not, I don't know but I thought they looked the most likely to win the league.<p>Grays stand no chance of getting in the coference with their current ground anyway so it will be a battle for second place. I think it will be between Canvey, Gravesend and Shots. Based purely on their results against my team, it would ultimately have to be Canvey.<p>[ 06 November 2001: This message was edited by: SteveP-Chesh ]</p>

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in the current climate i can see the conf putting up a lot of resistance to accepting a second place team..if grays win it could be a case of same time next year then everyone...

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The Conference certainly don't want runners up anymore, as stated in their EGM last June. However, this was when they announced their playoffs, and we all know how they went shocked.gif" border="0 <p>"Previously the Conference had accepted the runners-up of the feeder leagues (as in Cheltenham Town) if the champions failed to meet the required ground grading - however, it will now only accept the champions. After next season the Conference will also only accept the same number of teams promoted from the three feeder leagues as there are promoted from the Conference to the Football League."<p>[ 06 November 2001: This message was edited by: Ali (K's) ]</p>

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I'm really not sure about the promotion issue. I wouldn't have thought that the FA could stop the Conference from implementing their rather petty attitude. <p>With the setup allowing just the single promotion place, isn't the only requirement to the Conference that it accepts the top placed team - should they meet the requirements?<p>[ 06 November 2001: This message was edited by: Ali (K's) ]</p>

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The part I was querying was not the conference's right to only take the top team from each feeder, but their stated position that they are only going to take as many teams as are permitted promotion to the FL.<p>As I understand it, that will mean that only oneclub will be promoted in total, not one from each feeder league.<p>Does anyone have a definite answer on this. <p>Also, the FA have their own proposals on which the feeder clubs have to provide input by the end of this month, so that it can begin, I think, at the start of the 2003/2004 season.

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Carjam<p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Iron Knob. Looks like you’ve been caught fiddling the figures. This isn’t the FA Cup you know <hr></blockquote><p>Please explain.

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Simon BTFC has already explained that one. Unless your referring to the FA Cup bit. Just in case, it's my belief that some clubs sometimes give out lower attendance figures for FA Cup ties. When they have to give A third of the gate to the FA. Hope that helps. Next season at Canvey try counting the crowd on your fingures when you play your first match and then see whats announced. Use both hands.

I was not aware of the threat of only one club going up. It would cause uproar and disoltion. Not what football needs and endless meaningless games in the conference as there already are in the feeder leagues. <p>Car Jam

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A question for Aldershot fans...<p>What were your average attendances back in Div 3, and so on up the league? I know you've always been well supported, but has it increased noticeably with each new promotion? Also, how does it currently compare to the old Aldershot before its demise?

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Anyone heard of Chievo?? The village team with a population of 3,500. They're top of Italy's Serie A. They have never spent more than half a million on a player, sometimes it's more about the making of a great team than population or wealth.<p>There is no doubt, that the trend Carjam and Andy are suggesting is common place. But disparities are what football romance is all about, it's great to see teams buck that trend and unfortunately this is becomming less common than it used to be. <p>The 'buck the trend' formula is simple, good people in the club creating a nucleus, like Wimbledon with Kinnear, Jones and Fashanu, they never got relegated when they were the 'crazy gang'. I think the same applies to Taylor's Watford when they went from Div 4 to Div 1, if you have the right people at the start of the process, success comes easier and less expensively.

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Chievo ?... actually yes I have heard of them. Saw them in the newspapers. Well done them, lets hope they dont go bust in a few years and lets hope your right. Look forward to meeting Chesham in the European Championship league final in eight or nine years.<p>Badger..loved your website. Only saw Enfield mentioned once. When are you reforming the Pistols.<p>CarJam

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Steve P,

I agree - I remember going to Plough Lane the year Wimbledon were elected to the league to see them play the Shots and it was great to see them rise to the Premier. Similarly with Watford. The problem is always staying there. In fact, I think Wimbledon's greatest achievement was not winning the cup or getting to the Old Division 1 - but staying there.<p>Badger,

Aldershot's average attendance in Ryman Div 3 was not far off 2,000 - much the same as it is today. Arguably the away support was bigger in the first couple of years (1,500 taken to Chertsey; 1,000 to Atherton (Wigan) for an F A Vase match. In the early days, we were all on a great adventure and something of that Spirit has been lost.

As a league club in the final few years we weren't particularly well supported. in 1986/87 when we were promoted via the Play-Offs the highest regular season crowd was 3,100. Our final gate in Ryman Division 1 was over 4,100. My guess is that if we are in with a decent shout of the championship come Easter we may well get 4,000 - 5,000 crowds again.<p>If we get promoted and are mid-table conference, I think our crowds will remain about 2,000.

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