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General Election 2005

MOTM v Sutton  

27 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was your Man of the Match?

    • P Nicholls
    • A Lacey
    • C Robinson
    • K Millington
      0
    • D Young
      0
    • J Haverson
      0
    • J Keister
    • W Wilson
      0
    • J Healy
      0
    • L Blackman
      0
    • S West
      0
    • S Cliff
    • L Smith
      0


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Quote:
Harry J Allstars said:
I still don't know who to vote for, I might leave it up to the coin to decide.


Just make sure you do vote, Harry. I think it's appalling how few people bother. I have much more respect for someone who actively votes for the "other side" & gets them in that way, than someone who stays at home & lets them in by the back door.

In my first ever election in 1974, I voted Liberal, because I didn't trust either of the big parties, which at the time were dominated by big business on the one hand & the unions on the other. However, I soon woke up to the fact that in Gravesend, this was a wasted vote, as it has always been a dog fight between the big two. I've always voted Labour since, even when I knew they couldn't get elected, because I just couldn't stomach what the Tories stood for. If I lived in a constituency where it was between the Conservatives & Lib Dems, I'd vote Lib Dem, to keep the Tories out - and annoy FF!

Howard is trying to appeal to people who have an instinctive distrust of anyone foreign or different. For many people, immigrant is just a code word for non white and he knows it. The langusge is much more acceptable now, but his basic line of attack is little different to that used by the winning Conservative in the Smethwick byelection of 1964, who ran on the slogan, "if you want a n*gger for a neighbour, vote Labour."

Howard has also said that he will confer with the Confederation of British Industry about how many migrants should be allowed into Britain each year, but the CBI Head, Digby Jones, has gone on the record as saying he does not agree with setting a figure and that the Tory plans are unworkable, adding that continued immigration (not increased or uncontrolled - nobody is asking for that, though Howard would have you believe Labour are) is essential for economic growth. So there it is, from the leader of the nation's business community, for all of you little Englanders who secretly want an end to all immigration, if not all immigrants sent home: the economy couldn't grow without them.

I think Howard is a nasty little man, appealing to the suspicious, distrustful, mean spirited side of human nature. But you don't have to agree with me. As I said at the start, whether your on "my side" or not, make sure you vote.

EC

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I get annoyed at the damned unfairness of the Tory philosophy, ie privatise everything to make it better or make a profit.. There are some things that simply belong to the government and have no right to be making profit for the fat cat shareholders. Things like prisons,water supply, electricity, postal service, gas, railways, hospital cleaning, government buildings, etc,etc,etc. Whilst they may make millions for the few lucky Tories who are elected onto the boards by their freemason tory chums, the services they provide are rarely, if ever, improved.

I am still not Mr Blair's biggest fan, but he is still 100 times better than the devil of the night, Howard.

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I think they are all crap, just in it for themselves. You have to vote though.

 

They should give you a card with a number on it when you have voted and without that number you can't vote on pop idol or big brother or whatever old rubbish you can vote for on tv.

 

The percentage of voters would double lol

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Unrecognized Genius said: If I lived in a constituency where it was between the Conservatives & Lib Dems, I'd vote Lib Dem, to keep the Tories out - and annoy FF!


The trouble with voting Lib Dem in such scenarios is that the government doesn't know why the Lib Dems have had success - is it tactical voting or an ideological choice?

Whereas, if the option is there to vote for fringe parties (e.g. Greens), the government knows that people who voted for them have made an ideological choice, and so if their percentage of votes is high, the government may be more encouraged to change their ways - a theory outlined by George Monbiot in the Guardian last week.

That said, I can fully understand the temptation of tactical voting against the Tories. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
Chatham Gary said:I am still not Mr Blair's biggest fan, but he is still 100 times better than the devil of the night, Howard.

I get annoyed at the damned unfairness of the Tory philosophy, ie privatise everything to make it better or make a profit..


Er, isn't that Labour's current approach as well?

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Quote:
Anonymous said:
The problem with an attitude such as " Charity begins at home" is that with the BNP it ends there as well. I was half expecting the Anon to write " I'm not a racist but...." to prove that he obviusly is!


And quite rightly too. The British government should look after Britain and British people as their main priority before allowing unknown quantities of ‘so-called’ asylum seekers to reside in this country.

Someone has pointed out that they don’t feel threatened by the Eastern European young men wandering around the town centres. Maybe this is the case. But it does breed resentment towards these people when the bill for housing and feeding these people costs billions of pounds in tax payer’s money per year – at a time when this money could be better spent tackling crime, the NHS, Education, Transport and so on. Why should British tax payers put up with substandard hospitals and schools when vast amounts of money is being used to look after people who have contributed nothing to this country?

I don’t know how the statement “I’m not racist but…” automatically proves anyone to be racist?

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Anonymous said:
I don’t know how the statement “I’m not racist but…” automatically proves anyone to be racist?


Because it's a cliché, commonly used by racist people before uttering a comment which reveals their prejudice, as in "I'm not racist, but I'm fed up with all them darkies taking our jobs."

The problem with all this stuff about outsiders being a drain on our resources is that it feeds the wrong headed opinion that migrants come here to scrounge off the state. The ovewhelming majority don't. They come because they mistakenly believe there is work here, that they can create a better life for themselves. I'm no "wet liberal" and in fact this is also the view of a high ranking police officer who was closely connected with the Kamel Bourgass case (No, he wasn't trying to suggest that's why Bourgass himself came here.) In fact when they can work they do. I see groups of Eastern European young men on the bus each morning in Woolwich carrying carpentry and building tools and the cafe where I sometimes take a quick breakfast before work used to host a large group of Bulgarian builders who certainly hadn't come here for free housing, mobile phones and limitless benefits that certain sections of the press will have you believe they get.

EC

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Unrecognized Genius said:
I see groups of Eastern European young men on the bus each morning in Woolwich carrying carpentry and building tools and the cafe where I sometimes take a quick breakfast before work used to host a large group of Bulgarian builders who certainly hadn't come here for free housing, mobile phones and limitless benefits that certain sections of the press will have you believe they get.

EC


OK that's Woolwich, but to be honest I'm more interested / concerned in what I see in Gravesend Town Centre. I'm more concerned by the ever increasing waste of my taxes, both on asylum seekers and lazy workshy Brits - you know the ones, with 7 kids and no thought of providing for them through getting a job.

Privatisation isn't a bad thing - remember BT & British Gas before they were privatised?

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Until you know the exact individual circumstances of each one of the alleged " asylum seekers " in Gravesend, you are simply guessing at why they are here. I bet that you have never bothered to find out either. So it suits your true racist tendencies to lump them altogether and to make up a story to support your position. No one can justify discriminating against an ethnic group by treating them as being all the same. As for not working, they are almost certainly prevented from obtaining employment under present rules. You can't have it both ways. kmj.

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Unrecognized Genius said:
Quote:
Anonymous said:
I don’t know how the statement “I’m not racist but…” automatically proves anyone to be racist?


Because it's a cliché, commonly used by racist people before uttering a comment which reveals their prejudice, as in "I'm not racist, but I'm fed up with all them darkies taking our jobs."

The problem with all this stuff about outsiders being a drain on our resources is that it feeds the wrong headed opinion that migrants come here to scrounge off the state. The ovewhelming majority don't. They come because they mistakenly believe there is work here, that they can create a better life for themselves. I'm no "wet liberal" and in fact this is also the view of a high ranking police officer who was closely connected with the Kamel Bourgass case (No, he wasn't trying to suggest that's why Bourgass himself came here.) In fact when they can work they do. I see groups of Eastern European young men on the bus each morning in Woolwich carrying carpentry and building tools and the cafe where I sometimes take a quick breakfast before work used to host a large group of Bulgarian builders who certainly hadn't come here for free housing, mobile phones and limitless benefits that certain sections of the press will have you believe they get.

EC


Some fair points but I would dispute the fact that overwhelming majority of asylum seekers don’t come here to scrounge of the state. If that were genuinely true then why do so many of these asylum seekers pass through dozens of other safe countries en-route to Britain?

The fact is fella that the government don’t have a clue how many immigrants are residing in Britain at the moment. They don’t know how to stop the flood of people coming into this country and I’m not sure that they have any intention of doing so. They have turned large parts of our capital city into a slum, with high crime rates and pitiful education standards. Even a small town like Gravesend is unrecognisable from the place it was ten or fifteen years ago – eastern European’s, Somalia’s, Afghans, Iraqi’s. We even have a few Uzbekistanians’ in Gravesend now - what’s that about? Gravesend is no different from Dartford or Gillingham or any other town in England, they’re all the same. Blunkett’s comments about leniency being applied to retrospective planning applications for gypsies, huge unauthorised travellers camps such as the one in Smithy Fenn in Cambridgeshire and Wickford and Essex will be everywhere in a few years time. Labour has turned this country into a joke. I’ve got immense pride in being true British and our history and culture, but make no mistake pal this country is deteriorating big time thanks to that scum Blair and his cronies. I’ll be voting for Gareth Johnson of the Conservatives on May 5th in the hope of getting Labour out. If the worst comes to the worst and Labour gets re-elected that it’s pretty much certain that I’ll turn to the BNP after that. If it’s racist then tough, all these minority groups have people fighting for their rights but who’s sticking up for mine? Nobody and I’m getting pretty sick of it.

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Mr KMJ - you're dead right, legally they are prevented from working, so to condemn them for scrounging is non-sensical. However, the legality of the situation doesn't stop some of them finding work, just as I did when I got casual work without a Social Security number in the USA, in my long distant youth. I'm sure the Russian (or whatever they are) lads I see on the bus aren't working legally. Both they and the Bulgarians I used to see will have been working for well under the minimum wage - but they'll have been glad to take it, just as their employer would have been delighted to find a willing and cheap source of labour.

 

Not right or legal of course, but who will you find bleating the most about "these foreigners coming over here & taking our jobs" - the "workshy, lazy Brits" FF describes above. They don't all have 7 kids, but there is a sub culture within Society of people whose families have no tradition of working for a living. I used to defend them in times of high unemployment. For years now, they have had no excuse. Many of them, of course wil be the parents & grandparents of those chavvy little gits who hang around on the streets being a pain in the a*rse.

 

EC

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I can see valid points in some of what FF says, and can see why some of the Anons might have a point, but most of the sense in this thread is coming from kmj, Graham S and Mr Genius.

 

Immigration is an issue and it does need tackling. But I personally find it suspicious when some people can't see past it, concetrate on it, obsess about it, as if immigrants are the sole cause of all that is wrong in this country. There's plenty of other issues that deserve as much airing, but if this board is anything to go by, immigration is the ONLY issue for some people and that's worrying.

 

Fact is, it's a problem, but not as big a one as the Daily Mail, etc, would have you believe. Try this article in The Times. I'm not saying it's gospel truth, but those that like to bash on about immigration love their statistics, so here's some for you:

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1585632,00.html

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1585745,00.html

 

 

Copy and paste the URL and click on graphic to enlarge. Obviously, this doesn't count illegal immigration, so fair enough, but it does point out (alongside the Times article posted earlier) that those of you that would have us believe we've being swamped and bled dry are exaggerating.

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Surely we are already swamped? As I’ve said above, the fact in large parts of our capital city white British people are a minority is frankly disgraceful. Try and explain to the elderly couple who live in Tower Hamlets, Brent, Bethnal Green or Tottenham that this country isn’t swamped!

 

I’m not being funny mate but even if the government put an absolute stop to immigration tomorrow and allowed no further immigrants to enter Britain then we’d still be a minority in London within five years! How long before British people are a minority in other cities? It’s not on. It’s OUR country and that traitor Blair is selling us down the river.

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Anonymous said:
Some fair points but I would dispute the fact that overwhelming majority of asylum seekers don’t come here to scrounge of the state. If that were genuinely true then why do so many of these asylum seekers pass through dozens of other safe countries en-route to Britain?


Because there is a pervasive belief that work can be found here, more so than anywhere else that they pass through en route. Listen to the interviews with these people. It's what they say. They don't say they come here for the benefits (which are nothing like what the rightwing press would have you believe they get and which nobody with a brain would regard as worth taking all the risks of an illegal entry to obtain.)

Quote:
Even a small town like Gravesend is unrecognisable from the place it was ten or fifteen years ago – eastern European’s, Somalia’s, Afghans, Iraqi’s. We even have a few Uzbekistanians’ in Gravesend now - what’s that about? Gravesend is no different from Dartford or Gillingham or any other town in England, they’re all the same. Labour has turned this country into a joke. I’ve got immense pride in being true British and our history and culture ... all these minority groups have people fighting for their rights but who’s sticking up for mine? Nobody and I’m getting pretty sick of it.


Think this gives you away. Your real problem is with people that you see as not being "true British." The truth is the British are a mongrel race and have been for centuries: Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Norsemen, Normans all added themselves to the first immigrants to arrive here, and all before 1066. Since then, we have a proud tradition of welcoming people who are fleeing persecution or looking to improve their quality of life. Against this there's always been a nasty resentful streak too, since laws were passed in Elizabethan times discriminating against black apprentice boys in London.

My feeling is that you're trying to hold onto the myth of the true Brit and you see this as the truly British way. I see things differently. Of course there has to be control over immigration - no country can sustain unlimited numbers of people coming in at will, but I have no problem with other obviously foreign groups of people living here. I enjoy diversity and believe it adds to the strength and vibrancy of the place. Nobody's standing up for your rights, because nobody is trying to take them away and you don't have hysterical public opinion looking to blame you for all the country's supposed ills.

EC

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Can’t you see that many of these immigrants are dragging Britain back into the dark ages?

 

I’m lucky enough to live in an area where you just wouldn’t see an immigrant, but look at what’s going on in ethnic majority areas. Increases in HIV, tuberculosis and other illnesses, not safe to walk the streets at night, gun crime, drug taking, dirty streets with graffiti, fraudulent election vote rigging. Many of these immigrants have no idea how to conduct themselves properly and in their stupidity are turning huge parts of the country into the horrible places that they have fled.

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Point I was making URG, is that the first invaders were not different races for a start, that's a myth, and secondly the only think that easter europeans, africans and so on comtribute to is listed above, crime etc.

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So where you're coming from, let's be honest, is not that you're all that worried about the legality of immigration and the funding that goes into it and the issues of asylum. Your bottom line, and your whole obsession with this issue (I accept 'obsession' is my word) is that you're afraid non-whites are filling up your country and reducing the superiority/position of privilege enjoyed by white-skinned Britons.

 

White people make up 92% of this country - yes, there are projections that this will diminish, but if you think the white race is about to be overhauled, you're a very paranoid individual. Most of the positions of power and establishment in this country are white, and I'm sure 50 years down the line, while the situation will have changed, you won't be the only white face in a 'sea of darkness' or whatever it is you're so afraid of.

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Anonymous said:
Can’t you see that many of these immigrants are dragging Britain back into the dark ages?

I’m lucky enough to live in an area where you just wouldn’t see an immigrant, but look at what’s going on in ethnic majority areas. Increases in HIV, tuberculosis and other illnesses, not safe to walk the streets at night, gun crime, drug taking, dirty streets with graffiti, fraudulent election vote rigging. Many of these immigrants have no idea how to conduct themselves properly and in their stupidity are turning huge parts of the country into the horrible places that they have fled.


In your point about the area where you live, you damn yourself. You have no experience of living in an area where the people come from obviously mixed & different ethnic backgrounds (What I suspect is that you have no non-white faces or obviously Eastern European accents around you.)

So, how the Hell can you talk authoritavely about life in the real world? Increase in HIV and other STIs is caused by a failure in our sex education programme and by people of all backgrounds ignoring sensible advice; the return of TB and other illnesses is down to the over reliance on accepted drugs and anti-biotics, in particular, which has led to the development of strains of these diseases which are resistant to the traditional treatments; it is perceived as being not safe to walk the streets at night because gangs of kids have got accustomed to doing exactly what they like, without being challenged or brought to book - in Gravesend the vast majority of these kids are white, poorly educated & even more poorly parented; gun crime is a fact of life in areas of London and other big cities, like London - yes it seems to be a cheap, quick short cut to macho-hood for many young black males, not because they're black, but because they have undeveloped value systems, just like their white counterparts who choose a different form of expressing it; as for saying that dirty streets, graffitti, drug taking and election rigging (ok so Mugabe does it; he's black; therefore all blacks do it?) well, words fail me.

Take it from me, in the stupidity stakes you out-do virtually every immigrant, asylum seeker and non-white person I have ever met as a friend, colleague, adversary in debate, pupil I teach or parent of the same, if you truly believe the drivel you have just posted. Even Michael Howard would disown you. Pray there is a BNP candidate in your constituency and waste your vote on them.

Graham S

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Graham S said:

In your point about the area where you live, you damn yourself. You have no experience of living in an area where the people come from obviously mixed & different ethnic backgrounds (What I suspect is that you have no non-white faces or obviously Eastern European accents around you.)

Graham S


Thankfully, yes that’s correct.

Quote:
Graham S said:

So, how the Hell can you talk authoritavely about life in the real world? Increase in HIV and other STIs is caused by a failure in our sex education programme and by people of all backgrounds ignoring sensible advice

Graham S


The fact remains however hard people like Graham S jack.gif try to bend the truth that in the last five years the annual number of new HIV diagnoses in Britain has more than doubled. At the end of 2001, it was estimated that there were a total of 41,200 people living with HIV in the UK, of which just over a third were undiagnosed. In 2002, there were approximately 4,300 diagnoses acquired through heterosexual sex; 80% of which were likely to have been acquired in Sub-Saharan Africa. The relatively rapid rise in HIV infections in the UK comes at a time when the Government is under increasing public pressure to reduce the number of asylum seekers and migrants coming into the country, on the grounds that they are overburdening the education, health and social welfare infrastructure.

(Figures taken from an official Home Office report “An Inquiry into the Impact of the UK Nationality and Immigration System on People Living with HIV” by Neil Gerrard MP into the rise of HIV diagnoses in Britain, July 2003)

It is also worth noting that present; 42 million people are infected with HIV, over 30 million of who are living in Sub-Saharan Africa. The epidemic in India is spreading rapidly and nothing is being done to stop it. India has overtaken South Africa as the country with the most HIV positive patients.

(Taken from a report compiled by Richard Feacham, The executive director of the Global Fund to Fight Aids, April 2005)

Quote:
Graham S said:
Gun crime is a fact of life in areas of London and other big cities, like London - yes it seems to be a cheap, quick short cut to macho-hood for many young black males, not because they're black, but because they have undeveloped value systems, just like their white counterparts who choose a different form of expressing it

Graham S


screwy.gif

Quite frankly the most worrying of all your ratings and a sad but true indication into the attitudes of the general public and quite possibly many policeman officers into the worrying rise of gun culture. Gun culture is not a way of life but a statement of intent by anybody foolhardy enough to partake in such stupidity then they are rejecting participation in a lawful and democratic society and therefore are criminals and should feel the full force of the law. I see you have had the sense to realise that black males do so not because of the colour of their skin but by their very nature are culturally and morally hostile to the British way of life their value system is undeveloped.

Quote:
Graham S said:
…election rigging (ok so Mugabe does it; he's black; therefore all blacks do it?) well, words fail me.

Graham S


Graham S jack.gif jack.gif futile attempts to instigate that I suggested that ALL blacks are responsible for election rigging is clearly not true. Whilst is to be expected that less advanced societies across the world are more likely to have sub-standard working models of democracy I was simply highlighting the fact about the Muslim parliamentary candidates in the Midlands who we have read about in the papers recently.

Quote:
Graham S said:

Take it from me, in the stupidity stakes you out-do virtually every immigrant, asylum seeker and non-white person I have ever met as a friend, colleague, adversary in debate, pupil I teach or parent of the same, if you truly believe the drivel you have just posted. Even Michael Howard would disown you. Pray there is a BNP candidate in your constituency and waste your vote on them.

Graham S


bustingup.gif

Now come on Graham we know that’s not true and it’s more of an indication into your frustration at the rise of more and more good honest, hard-working British people who are beginning to wake up and question the actions and motives of the Labour government and their failed multi-cultural experiment more than any indication into my level of intellect.

As I’ve said before I will vote Conservative in this election and will make a decision as to who I shall be landing my support either as a voter or party activist at a later date.

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