War Is Imminent

[The Invisible Man]

Just a little bit of a tangent, but why is it assumed that if you are working you are "making a contribution" whereas if you are following a full-time course of education, you are not?

 

You go to work to acquire the money that you need to live, not because you're a nice person. You work for someone who needs your labour, and has to pay you to get you to do it, not because he/she is a nice person. They do this because they want to make money from whatever the business may be, not because they're nice enough to manufacture widgets for the good of mankind. So we're all in it for the money, and widgets get manufactured as a by-product.

 

So what's the problem with academic study? And before some of you who, shall we say, lean to the right, start, I don't include Film Studies or Beckhamology and so on. So is a professor of archaeology "contributing" and should he/she be allowed to vote?

 

If someone's on the dole, no doubt you will vilify him/her as a sponger. If they win the lottery, buy a tasteless mansion and absurd car collection, you applaude and envy them. In either case, as they are not working and thus not contributing, should they be allowed to vote?

 

What about the boys in braces at the stock exchange? They certainly make no contribution.

 

Sod this, I'm off down the pub.

[EFM The Firm, The Voice]

Everyone should have to vote - It should be law, there should be a abstain part on the voting slip though.

 

As for the age to vote - I agree it should be 16, I was itching to vote at 17 and 16, I have voted in every single local and general elections since - If you don't vote, you can't complain.

 

And do you now which party championed for the voting age to be brought down to 18 (used to be 21) - It was the Monster Raving Loony Party, you'll be amazing how many "loony" policys have actually been brought in by the "non-loony" partys.

[EFM's Librarian]

Excellent piece from the invisible man there, too many people seem to believe that things are only worthy if they are making money.

Canv, what is someone who becomes unemployed supposed to do? They don't pay tax, so they can't vote, but what if the party in power has contributed to the lack of jobs/education in their society? Zeal tried to tell me recently that people should only have to pay taxes for things they chose to contribute to, his argument was "if all these bleeding-heart liberals want to give money to asylum seekers - fine, but let them pay" unfortunately Zeal, this leads to something called the free-rider problem, are you willing to pay for your street light? yes? but then you find out your neighbour hasn't, because he knows you will. See the problem?

There are some things that benefit society but are not understood by some members of society. This is why we have politicians, they can (theoretically) make informed decisions for the benefit of society as a whole, if you don't like them, elect somebody else.

MDETaylor the problem with the current debt relief systems is that they are a further attempt to impose western hegemony on small countries. The situation is this, the West lends lots of money to small countries (often as part of aid packages, so the country was coerced into accepting) then begins to demand it back, unsurprisingly the small countries can't pay, so we say if you adopt our systems, shops, cultures etc. we might let you off some of your debt. BTW I'm sure I heard recently that on the day of Comic relief, poor countries actually pay more in debt to Britain than we collect for them thorugh 'wacky' fund-raising, makes it seem a bit pointless really.

Finally, for anyone who thinks people never change their mind, I used to be very anti debt relief in my right-wing student days! I believed the argument that if you cancel debt now, these countries will never be able to get loans in the future. I know realise this argument is not true.

MDETaylor, look up "Structural adjustment program" on the net and see what you find

[EFM's Librarian]

Oh, and I forgot to comment on the voting age thing, I actually think Zeal had a point here. You have to insert an arbitrary mark somewhere, in an ideal world we would have some kind of knowledge test, where you could only vote if you could prove you had thought about the arguments on both sides (this could apply to everyone, not just young people) but obviously this is unrealistic.

Yes, some 16 and 17 year olds are going to feel agrieved, but you have to draw a line somewhere, or maybe you don't, perhaps we should say anyone who can be bothered to make the effort to vote should be allowed to vote? (is there a smiley for devil's advocate?)

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Quote:

are you willing to pay for your street light?

Funnily enough, I do own a street-light in my old road. Had to pay for it (£812) when I knocked down the old one in my car.

That's another story though!

[MK James]

 

Haven't you guys got anything better to do than talk about voting and the war? In case you had forgotten, the Top 5 Things To Do At The Weekend thread is still active.

[GHA EFM]

£812 for a streetlight?? [Knocky joke]That's illuminating.[/Knocky joke] Interesting. I might get me one of those.

 

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Yeah, I thought it was a little on the expensive side. The whole sorry episode cost me a small fortune actually.

 

 

[mdetaylor]

Librarian

 

You have your view, I just don't happen to agree with it. I know enough about debt restructuring programmes (SAP included) to comment. Yes SAP is flawed and has been applied badly. It has caused problems but mainly in states that were unstable and inappropriate for its application (particularly things like the devaluation of currency). I don't buy the idea that systems shops etc are imposed through debt relief, just look at China (and a number of other South East Asian countries) who have adopted some western syetems shops etc. without debt relief.

 

I think my actual point got somewhat lost and your point about comic relief actually brings me back to it. Comic relief is the prime example of celebrity guilt relief - the ones who actually care carry on their work year in year out (Henry, Connolly etc) and do not use comic relief for publicity like some of the D list celebs that are on it. Most of them forget about it until it comes round again and in reality the value of comic relief (and other telethons) has been reduced by their regularity - the shock value of Live Aid no longer exists - and what they raise, while greatfully received, doesn't really address the bigger picture.

 

I am not against debt relief, far from it, what I don't like is the way the celebs jump on it as the new issue and spout ill informed rubbish that is then recycled by people who love to jump on something to have a go at authority. I hate trying to have discussions with people who read you what Bono has said or what it is says in the Guardian - they seem to have no capacity for forming their own views.

 

It has happened with the fire strike which most people have now forgotten about.

It happens once or twice a year with fox hunting.

It is happening with Iraq.

It will be something else in 6 months.

 

Speak to alot of people who are totally against the war now when they have their next hobby horse they will not be able to remember what their arguments against war were - it is a sad reflection on the way people accept something as gospel without thinking about the issues for 5 minutes

[GHA EFM]

Quote:

Speak to alot of people who are totally against the war now when they have their next hobby horse they will not be able to remember what their arguments against war were

Is this not a rather vague generalisation?

[mdetaylor]

A little but based on a lot of market reasearch (or maybe it is just Guardian readers and arts students - no one at work seems that bothered)

[Colin Zeal EFM]

I can't say that anyone seems too bothered here either, to be honest. Of the people I've spoken to, it's about 50/50, but I tend to find it's only those 'against' who get all hot under the collar about it.

 

 

[EFM's Librarian]

mdetaylor

 

I actually agree with some of your points, my problem with the claimed success of some debt relief programmes is the way success is defined. There is usually no account taken of effects on income distribution, employment, or any of the social effects. This is my general complaint about most economics. Policies are always judged almost solely on their financial effects, with very little consideration given to effects on society, or areas that economists generally believe to be more difficult to measure.

I agree that it is annoying when people argue with you, when they don't know what they're talking about, but in my experience this seems to be the case from people who get all their arguments from the Sun!

[AFF]

mdet. CZ.

 

You both said that few at your offices seem that bothered about 'it'.

 

I'm curious. By 'it', do you mean the arguements for and against military operations in Iraq, or do you mean the war itself?

 

If the latter, do you think that your colleagues have strong[ish] feelings, perhaps of a general nature, but they keep them to themselves, prefering to comment upon the mundane: the weather, the price of washing powder, sport etc?

[Colin Zeal EFM]

They're a pretty opinionated bunch here, AFF.

 

If they were that bothered about any of it, believe me, I'd hear about it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

 

We have 20-odd people in this company and two have come out in support of the war, and two are very against it. I haven't included myself in these figures. The others are showing no interest at all.