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The Horse'sMouth

A Couple of questions !

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I have obviously looked at events as best I can but I would be grateful if someone could clear some things up for me.<p>1. What were the debts when Lee took over and what are the debts now. <p>2. What exactly was the offer made to the supporters ?<p>And before you ask, yes I do know Lee but not that well.<p>THM

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1]Understood to be around 90k+, currently? take your pick from 250k upwards and increasing by the day<p>2] the supporters would run the club day 2 day and take out an overdraft to fulfill current[not in CVA] debts and Mr H would maintain his majority shareholding.

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THM, perhaps I can help.<p>When I took over, the company’s debts were £170k, some personally guaranteed by the previous directors.<p>As at October 2001, debts were £253k, of which over £130k was to either me personally and my companies and not threatening, leaving some £120k, primarily the Revenue.<p>In October 2001, I initiated a formal rescue package for the company that runs the club whereby £45k would be introduced to clear all debt once and for all. This was supported by the Crown Court and all the company’s creditors.<p>I then invited the supporters set up a democratically elected management committe to run the club but, unfortuately, the supporters had a meeting where they voted 38 votes to nil not to support the proposal while I remained majority share-holder.<p>I then took the view that I could not justify supporting the company if I had no support from the fans and withdrew my rescue package and put my share-holding (80%) up for sale for £1. To date, no takers and the company is faced with a winding up petition on 20 February.

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Strange how the figures seem to change every time you use them.<p>What you fail to mention is that the second CVA had to be paid in seven days and that evidence of this was shown to the supporters in writing. You only asked for the supporters to help you after the seven day deadline had elapsed.<p>You may say that you agreed to pay the CVA in instalments but no written confirmation was provided to this effect. Why should we have believed you when you have lied over so many matters?

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Call me thick, but what is a CVA ?<p>Secondly, if this rescue package was in place (supposedly clearly all debts) why didn't the supporters go for it. Is it solely because you dont trust Lee ?<p>What did u think he was going to do ?<p>THM

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Mr Mouth (Horses)

Only a few people post on here most names are the same people,others like MFI

sorry EFM (ELFS,******S &MIDGETS)are sheep, follow the herd.Lee upset a few people,he pays the money so he calls the shots,you know who you are, could not accept this &think you can run the club on thin air.Lee gave us conference ground,

Gary Hill,Trophy semi &Bob Dowie,one team on the pitch & one in the stand,what did that cost? Most

just want to enjoy a game,but a few with egos have

almost put the lights out! <img src="graemlins/gore.gif" border="0" alt="gore" />

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Harding, if you had only spent a fraction of the time in running the club properly that you spend in posting these annoying messages then maybe we wouldn't be in the s*** that we are in now.

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I am reliably informed Mr. Sparrow, that at the Royal Court of Justice on January 8th, Mr Charles Barker, acting on behalf of the accountant Jeremy Berman, supervisor of the Companies Voluntary Agreement(CVA), stated catagorically that the lump sum was to be paid within 7 days of October 9th 2001, i.e October 16th 2001.There was never any arrangement to make the payments over four monthly instalments. <p>Mr Harding had clearly been lying but what is new?<p>As for the debts, THM, I would say getalonggang is not far out in his assessment, if anything the second figure is probably nearer to £300k, if you include Harding's £130k. The £130k figure in itself though can hardly be relied upon. There appears to be no proof of it and has most likely been plucked out of mid air by Harding. The rescue package was never in place, he was clearly without funds and Mr Sparrow is totally correct. The supporters were not approached until after the 7 day period had elapsed, at which point he was spinning a yarn about the supervisor having agreed to a four month instalment plan, which, of course, he had not.<p>You ask if it's that we do not trust the man. He is, without any shadow of a doubt, the most dishonest and untrustworthy man that I have ever had the misfortune to come into contact with in my whole life and believe me I have known a few. He has dragged this great club down so deep into the abyss that we may never ever recover. Whatever you do, do not let him within a thousand miles of yours.

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I've read and enjoyed, or read and despised many of the posts that I've seen on this site over the last few months, but I've never seen anything quite as "your m8"'s mail yesterday evening. Had a lot to drink, had we, your m8? It's the only rational explanation for somehow blaming EFM for the club's current plight. The internet offers anonymity to those who can can afford it, and 90% of the time, I don't know who's who on here - all I can say for sure is that Lee Harding, to best of my knowledge, has no apologists at Clarence Park, and blaming a bunch of young lads who, as far as I'm aware, have tried to make a stand on behalf of the club over the last few days is really quite staggeringly missing the point. I've made this point 1000 times on this message board, but I'll make it again - how the hell is this club ever going to hold itself together if it's own supporters can't help themselves from blaming each other for the current situation when we all KNOW whose fault it is? Bearing in mind the dismal outlook for all of us at the moment, I'm starting to dread what will happen if we have to reform - it may end up being splintered by the supporters themselves because they feel the need to dwell on the past too much and blame each other. I understand that this is an emotional time, and that feelings are running high. Perhaps it's time to channel that emotion towards something positive, rather than getting involved in stupid little infights. And the same goes for you, HelenC and The Duchess Of Kirkcaldy.

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Im not figthing with anyone Treovr! If you read the other thread I made exactly the same point as you have. Us fans need to pull together or all hell will break loose.<p> <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="angel" />

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Trevor England, I do not know who you are and you do not know who I am. Your point about anonimity is totally valid.<p>The message board is an excellent method of exchanging information but has also been used to spread misinformation and it has been almost impossible to separate fact from fiction over the last year or so. The only way that it is possible to establish accurate facts is by speaking to people face to face and by participating in supporters meetings.<p>Your point about the supporters all pulling together is also valid and is the only way forward.<p>One thing is for certain, now that Harding has shown his true colours to everyone, you can be sure that he has no supporters at this club and no-one will be willing to speak up for him. The comments made by Your M8 do not represent the feelings of any supporters. Your M8 is Harding under another of his stupid aliases. The truth is that the only person who will speak up for Harding is Harding himself. That is how sad he is.

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The Horses mouth<p>To try and answer your questions.<p>When Lee took over the club it was £130k in debt. As part of the negotiation when Lee took over he secured a CVA (Creditors Voluntary agreement).<p>This agreement was to pay of all creditors with 85p in the pound over 3 years. This instantly reduced the debt to £95k, plus a £10k personal loan which Lee took on.<p>This CVA is defaulted as no payment were made after Feb <p>In October this year the debts had risen to £250k, this debt was then bundled into another CVA potentially reducing the debt to £45k<p>This CVA was defaulted as no payment was made<p>The Current debts have risen to £300k and increase by around £4k a week<p>If you where to discount Lee's loans the debt has risen by 75% since Lee took over.<p>To answer your second question, is difficult as I do not know the party, but to my understanding an offer was made to Lee to aquire the assets, name, goodwill and buy all the debt for £1. Seems a good offer when you look at what is on the table.<p>This is not the first offer that Lee has turned down for the club.<p>I can confirm that a offer to buy Lee's 80% share holding for £1 was made buy a group of supporters in March of last year, which again was rejected.<p>Hope this answers your questions, the numbers keep changing but theses are reasonably reliable, well as realiable as anyone can produce as no books are kept by the club so it is difficult to prove what the real position is. The only debts that are easy to trace are.<p>1. The old debts of the CVA, published<p>2. The debt owed to the inland revenue<p>3. The debt owed to privite company's as involvices will be outstanding.<p>4. The players not being payed for 7 weeks and counting.

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Let’s just wait for Mr Harding with his side of the story, which almost undoubtedly will have changed, unless he has learnt to use copy and paste. <img src="graemlins/megaphon.gif" border="0" alt="[megaphon]" />

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The same as getalonggang, I think THM's second question is referring to the offer from Lee Harding given to the 6 supporters on October 18 to present to the Supporters Meeting on October 23. A total waste of everyone's time, seeing that the October 16 deadline date for the settlement of the CVA had already passed. I don't think it refers to the recent offer made by the local business consortium.

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ATF Blue.You are a useful chap to have around.

A couple of small points for clarity.

The CVA agreed in 1998 provided for a monthly payment of £1645 over 5 years, not 3. The company stopped making payments in Spring 2000, 2 years into the 5. The penalty for default in the Agreement is that the Supervisor would take steps for the winding up of the company.

The figure of £253,000 [which I think should be £256,000, but what's £3000 between friends etc,], of 'current' debt comes from a Letter to Creditors dated September 6th 2001. Attached to that letter was a Statement of Affairs, signed by the Directors, which stated the debts to be £256,000 at August 7th, 2001. Significant further debts have been incurred since August, of course, and as a round figure to contemplate the current position 5 months later, £300,000 seems appropriate.

Charliie Farnsbarnes summary of the sequence of steps in October 2001 is spot on.<p> <img src="graemlins/abkotz.gif" border="0" alt="[abkotz]" />

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As a Saint exiled in Watford I have only come to the sorry state of the club recently. How on earth have matters come to this? Is there really no consortium or individuals in one of the UK's most affluent towns who can find Roy Keane's monthly salary to save the Saints? What will happen to Clarence Park. Heaven help us if Enfield cast their homeless eyes. Throw soap at Bruce Rioch! Remamber '81

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These figures give me a headache. About as much as I can work out from it all is that we're talking about the sort of amounts of money that I'm not going to be able to write out a cheque for without the Nat West in St Peters Street having to close down for a day because the staff are all laughing far too much to be able to deal with the general public. <p>The point of this evening's message is, basically, this... is there anybody in the consortium who have put in offer for the club that is fabulously wealthy? To put it another way... what is the likelihood of the club getting a loan or overdraft for 300000.00 pounds, and, if it does manage it, won't this just be another stay of execution? I'd have thought that what we need at the moment is a millionaire with cash to burn, or a quickfire way of getting the necessary money to clear the debts without merely sweeping them under the carpet, which is surely what an overdraft/loan would be doing. Before I get too many complaints about this, I should point out the following:<p>1. No, I don't have any better ideas. I was just wondering.<p>2. No, I don't want to see the club die, and I guess that staggering from one financial crisis to another is better than closing down altogether.<p>BTW... I know that we're all hoping that next Saturday, or the one after (and so on) will see us back in league action, but, in the meantime, has anybody put out any feelers towards fundraising friendlies? Just wondering.... <img src="graemlins/klo.gif" border="0" alt="[klo]" />

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Trev. The whole range of emotions is exhibited in your various messages. Keep up the good work but avoid despair.

"Staggering from one financial crisis to another" is not an option that I can support. Once either the majority shareholder takes action or once the Official Receiver is appointed and takes control, steps can be taken to save the Club.

A meeting of the supporters can then be arranged at which the financial and legal position can be outlined and, most important of all, everyone must understand the fundamental principles upon which The Club should be run in the future. Nothing about the present position is good, but we should view the current situation as an opportunity to ensure that this football club never, ever is allowed to get into this position, ever again.

Some people boast of our Conference graded ground. So. Once the minor detail of winning the League is accomplished, we're up with the big[ger] boys. Err, not quite. Those people don't mention that a condition of entry into the Conference will be that the Club concerned has financial stability.

Never again!

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OK. So the debt when Lee took over was £130,000 and is now somewhere between £253,000 and £300K of which £130k is owed to Lee.

Lee alleges that a CVA was put in place where all debts would be paid off for £45k but this is disputed and was not agreed by the supporters. Lee is supposedly willing to accept £1 for his shares, but offers have been made of £1 but have not been accepted. <p>Am I correct on the above ?<p>I'll take answers from Lee or the supporters.<p>THM

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THM, See above.<p>If anyone offers £1, they can have my shares and I'll write off all my loans, etc.<p>Fancy it?

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but don't forget that ALL the creditors need to be paid in FULL by the 20th February!!!!

not everyone has their head in the sand!

<img src="graemlins/icon30.gif" border="0" alt="[icon30]" />

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