Same Old Managers/Players in the ESL Debate

[Jenko]

Over the past few weeks there has been a few topics and a good debate on clubs employing the same managers and players on a merry go round with no success, trophies etc. There is also the opinion on giving different, younger people a chance to manage in the ESL. I have been supportive of the 'old' guard of managers on the basis that they are the only ones that will do the job given at times the poor support they recieve off the pitch. Well where do people stand on this? How can people be expected to do a good job when they get little or no help off the pitch i.e. Clapton, Eton Manor, Basildon? Managers should manage the team but I know quite a few who do the pitch, sort out transport, clean the kit, do repairs on the ground, help in the bar etc. That is not fair and takes a toll on their role as a manager.

 

Following on from this can people give an example of new, young, managers who have done well budget or no budget and those that haven't. I can say Justin at BGU, Cowley/Scopesy at Concord and on the opposite side Jamie Warren who done f**k all at Bowers which I heard is a good set up.

[Basil-Don]

im a Secretary and like shaun pugh at Burnham or Reg Curtis at Eton Manor i do jobs which are not down to the Secretary so why shouldnt Managers do likewise,of course chris wood shouldnt be washing the kit or john doyle cutting the grass but if they dont who else is going to? now why a manager ends up doing all the work and the assistant manager seems to do a lot less has puzzled me for years but thats something you need to ask the managers as they appoint their assistants not me. the fact is plenty of people want a senior job and possibly a tracksuit with their name on it but many who give it a go try to run before they can walk and fall flat on their face or are simply too lazy.the reason why clubs employ the same managers is because they can do the job if you want to simply concentrate on football then apply for the man city job not a ESL position.

[Jenko]

That's my point though Bas. I'm not saying it about people like you and Shaun but the Clubs where it is down to 1 or 2 people. But why should the manager's do all the extra stuff? They are there to manager the team surely?

[Basil-Don]

no !! they are there to do a ESL managers job which includes them things,if you go to a club with 2 supporters and no volunteers then who do you think is going to carry out these responsibilities?? thats up to the manager to get an assistant to help him, not having a pop mate but you sound like someone who wants to take a senior job and likes the idea of having a tracksuit with your initials on but isnt too keen on getting your hands dirty.90 per cent of a ESL managers job is non football related.

[local player22]

The problem with many senior league clubs is that they dont have websites and the managerial vacancys always seem to be filled once the present manager has been sacked. I am currently involved at a ridgeons league club when I am essex based because no jobs seem to pop up in the senior league. However even at ridgeons clubs managers often do more then just managing.

[Hookey]

I think this is where Clubs that have an established youth set up benefit. The managers/coaches and parents are encouraged to help out on match days, also the youngsters get in free and act as ball boys etc.

[piper]

If what Basil-don is saying is right (which i dont doubt) then I think we have found a real reason for the decline of things. There cant be many managers of real ability who would be willing to do all the grass cutting ground cleaning, painting Ect......Going by what Basil-don has wrote on here it would sem that anyone who went for a job at Bas Utd was told of these requirements and its possible that a few people who would have improved the football at the club didnt take the job, therefore the football didnt improve, the interest didnt improve, the amount of paying fans didnt improve and now they are where they are. Im not in any way saying that Bas Utd made the wrong choices or that the way they run things is wrong but you can understand how hard it would be to find a manager who was of a decent standard and take a job on that basis. I would say that Basil-don is unfairly basing his account of a manager on what he and his club expect from one rather than what a manager should expect. It would seem that if someone comes in and trains the team twice a week and then picks a team, picks the formation, chooses the style of play and basically runs the football "team" then Basil-don puts him in the brackett of tracksuit wearing wannabe. In Basil-don's opinion it would seem that a manager should expect all the other side of things too. In my opinion let a football manager, manage. If Basil-don is right and thats the way most ESL clubs employ managers then i think we can expect many more problems...........Brain surgeons dont empty the p*ss bottles, Top London Bankers dont work on the tills, Council leaders dont sweep the streets and for me Good senior standard Football managers dont wash the kit, cut the grass, paint the stand, clean the changing rooms, maybe they do a liitle of each now and then but not as part of the job requirements. "JUST MY OPINION"

[Stop Whinging]

Trouble is that the managers move from club to club in the ESL so they no what to expect. It is not a secret what happens at the clubs in the ESL - so its up to them!. What is important to most of the guys is the title of manager hence they move from club to club , thats why one on this forum calls himself 'theboss' it says a lot!. In the Olympian League its no different managers do a lot outside of the managers role and most even put their own cash in . In my opinion the successful clubs at both levels seem to have well run clubs with volunteers, managers who manage , secretaries who do the admin , groundsman who do the pitch and chairmen who lead. I think that says all you need to know. In any role in life some 'punch above their weight', football is no different. You can have a good ground with floodlights and a bar and progress but if there is no support within the club it will eventually be found out (Coventry for example). In my experience getting some of these 'workers' to let go and encompass change is a lot tougher than you would think so people walk away and leave them to it. The eventual result is they do everything and the club begins to collapse and they blame lack of helpers etc but its their fault but they get their Clubman of the Year award and they are known as Mr xxxxxx FC so they are happy . There are numerous examples of this across Essex!. One thing for sure there are too many clubs in Essex and a complete overhaul needs to take place. This should include enforced mergers at Senior level. An example - Takeley, Stansted , Sawbo all in a matter of miles of each other plus Stortford and Harlow higher up the ladder long term they aren't all going to stay around! Saffron Walden in the same locality went last year. Someone needs to bite the bullet and force the change as IMO it will make the senior scene stronger. Backroom support is as important (or more important) than the facilities themselves and not enough emphasis is given to this in the approval process . If clubs fall foul of having the right support they should lose the right to senior status. I have been to a number of grounds this season in ESL and EOFL and it seems one man runs the show in some cases I have seen the manager man the bar when he should be delivering a team talk. If you dont have the support drop down to a level applicable to your ability on and off the field.

[Basil-Don]

Hookey- we have two very successful youth teams at Basildon United the parents do jack sh1t and its the same throughout non league football,99 per cent of the work is done by one person at most clubs whether it be lee stevens at bowers or shaun pugh at burnham,isnt it funny how you can always find people to work the turnstiles but no one wants to sweep up the changing rooms,never no shortage of volunteers for jobs where the handling of money is involved.

Piper-obviously if arsene wenger applied for the Bees job he would be turned down as totally unsuitable,what a manager does on the pitch is only 50 per cent of the job, sorry i cant believe that this comes as a shock to many people.

 

In senior football clubs give a manager a chance-they can make their name then go on like rod stringer to greater things,now if im stacking shelves in poundland and i moan about my wages the supervisior will no doubt tell me to 'fck off as theres 300 poles who want my job' and the fact is no matter how hard a ESL Managers job may be theres 30 people who will jump in to their shoes.thats football,thats life,the fact is no one ever press gangs a manager into taking such a job, managers are treated badly no doubt but until they form a union where they agree not to nick each other jobs nothing will change.

[Hookey]

Fair enough Basil-Don, I guess I was basing what I said on my brief tenure as Bowers & Pitsea's Youth team manager, where we all chipped in, though I am mostly talking about the Managers/Coaches as opposed to the parents. Maybe we were just fortunate.

 

You're right about the fact that there are never any shortage of takers for ESL jobs. e.g. Basildon United's problems over recent seasons have been well documented but that hasn't stopped people applying has it.

[Basil-Don]

Hookey its a buyers market,i get managers every day sniffing around the basildon job,yes its a horrible thankless role but plently of people still want it,how long they would last is another matter of course.

[piper]

Basil-don, obviously "The match " is a small part of a managers job especially at low levels but i wonder how many teams managers have been employed or sacked based on how much of the non-football related things they do or dont do. Once again for those who missed it the first time, in my opinion if managers were emplyed to soley do the stuff that effects the result then the football should improve, then the interest will improve, then the fan base would improve and then the number of volunteers would improve. This is just opinion. I can assure you of one thing though I am quite familular with mr Stringer and his time at Barking and although his work for what goes happens on the pitch was incredible and beyond doubt i'm quite sure he didnt worry about who washed the kits Ect.......All these threads are about either why ESL in in the dulldrums or why managers with poor track record move from club to club. I think we have answered the question. ESL clubs employ managers based on what they offer behind the scenes as much if not more then their abilities to coach quality football. This has led to poorer players, poorer games, poorer crowds and so on and so on. In my opinion "Get the football right and slowly everything else will improve". I dont have all the ideas on how to sort the other jobs while the manager gets on with the football but thats the real solution.

[Basil-Don]

Piper i did pick up on your argument first time round the problem is your working on the assumption that the senior officials at ESL clubs actually care if their team win or lose each week,if Basildon are top or bottom of the table we still get the same crowds and theres certainly no rush of volunteers come forward if we put together a good run.the fact is theres no way the rest of the ESL can ever compete with the big spenders in our division,lets say we rose to 3rd in ESL locals arent going to come flocking in when Billericay are top of the ryman premier.

[piper]

A very valid point mate but you are answering the question with us. I cant help but believe that if either of the 2 Basildon clubs had better standard football then people would go to watch. yes your right its hard to compete with Billericay Ect.....But peolple watch clubs that are good at their level (Hence why people watch canvey instead of southend or woodbridge instead of ipswich) but for too long Bas and Bowers have not done so and there is nothing to make people choose either over billericay or concord. You havent got to be better than them just good value to watch and people will support. I go back to a much earlier post, I went to an EOL game and the ground facilities, Atmosphere and football was both comfortable and enjoyable. They wasn't competing with ESL clubs for crowds or players or my attention but they got it. Yes if they charged £5 probably only half or less of those there would have been but for what little they can offer they did so very well both on and off the field. However if the games over ther were poor week in and out, no matter what effort that put in off the pitch, no one would want to watch making their efforts worthless. Thats the starting point for ESL make the football and surroundings comfortable and enjoyable and people will want to watch. Dont compete with Bigger clubs compete with peer clubs and become a bigger club.

[piper]

I forgot to also say that if you and other ESL clubs dont care if they win or lose then shame on you and i wish ruin on you all. You shouldnt come on here calling people tight with money and help if the case is your are part of a football club that has little care for how well you do on the field

[Basil-Don]

would rather lose 2-1 and have all the fines paid,players spend a few bob in the bar and no problems then win 2-1 players fck off with fines outstanding,kit go missing and have other off the field issues to do with.

 

It was only three years ago that Basildon were top of the ESL and enjoying a nice Vase run- what happened? Manager played a player with a false name,had to pay back Vase winnings, lost League points and had massive fines,who do you think ended up paying the fines?? wasnt the Manager or the player.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Basil-Don

[Hookey]

would rather lose 2-1 and have all the fines paid,players spend a few bob in the bar and no problems then win 2-1 players fck off with fines outstanding,kit go missing and have other off the field issues to do with.

 

It was only three years ago that Basildon were top of the ESL and enjoying a nice Vase run- what happened? Manager played a player with a false name,had to pay back Vase winnings, lost League points and had massive fines,who do you think ended up paying the fines?? wasnt the Manager or the player.

 

Yeah I remember that, I hope you Sine Die'd the feckers for "Outstanding Debts".

[local player22]

Edited factually incorrect/.

Edited April 11, 2012 by local player22

[Basil-Don]

Problem is Hookey when that happens the fines are directed towards club not the individuals involved, always the club who ends up paying mate.

[Basil-Don]

Basildon will never be treated seriously while they have directors in charge who have no interest in the club other then the size of the bar takings and possible money to be made by a compulsery purchase of the ground.

 

what bar takings? there is no compulsory purchase order on the ground apart from that a excellent point well made