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CCL Under 21 League


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Chris, thats looks a real positive step forward. Bridges the gap for the late developer between the tougher Prem and Div 1 leagues. Has there been alot of interest ? I can see a few college schemes and apprentice schemes wanting to be involvedespecially if the games can be played midweek daytimes.

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Chris, thats looks a real positive step forward. Bridges the gap for the late developer between the tougher Prem and Div 1 leagues. Has there been alot of interest ? I can see a few college schemes and apprentice schemes wanting to be involvedespecially if the games can be played midweek daytimes.

 

Not sure that will be the case.

Certainly clubs can play their home games on midweek evenings which could bring CWUFC into the equation.

We disbanded our reserve side this season but have a new youth set up.

I am watching the youth team at Farnham tonight and will be discussing the proposed new league on the journey down there.

I notice Alton Town already run an under 21 side already. Anyone from there care to comment as to how that works?

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The East Berks Youth Football League started an U21 league this season to keep people playing on a Sunday afternoon.

 

they have 8 teams playing in it of which Farnham Town and Ascot have sides in it.  I know the Ascot side is linked to the main club but cannot comment on the Farnham side.

 

It has been deemed a success due to having 8 sides and they are hoping to grow it in the coming years.

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Not sure that will be the case.

Certainly clubs can play their home games on midweek evenings which could bring CWUFC into the equation.

We disbanded our reserve side this season but have a new youth set up.

I am watching the youth team at Farnham tonight and will be discussing the proposed new league on the journey down there.

I notice Alton Town already run an under 21 side already. Anyone from there care to comment as to how that works?

 

 

 

The Aldershot and District Sunday league run an U21 league which Alton Town and Badshot Lea have sides in. With regards to rules on any over 21 players I do not know but by the fact its a Sunday Morning league I guess its not as useful as this proposal for any player returning from injury or lacking fitness. 

Edited by Lewprosser84
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Cannot believe that everyone thinks this is a good idea.Clubs are suffering financial meltdown as it is,where is the extra Finance going to come from?Last year Surrey F.A. offered the Croydon Municipal Sunday League a financial incentive to start up an Under 21 League,now why would they do that.Reason in my eyes is that their year by year revenues from Players Fines,Club Fines is falling drastically.Have the Combined Counties League been offered a sweetener to set an Under 21 League up,my guess is Yes.Reason it would increase their Revenue also,Membership Fees,Club Fines,for very little work on their behalf.

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You do enjoy change dont you smudge :)

 

what is wrong with offering it.  If clubs do not think it is a goer then they will not enter and it will not work.  It is not being forced on clubs.

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No doubt, there will be additional revenue raised for the CCL and local FAs. However, putting a player development head on, it is a great idea. It affords the clubs an opportunity to keep the younger members playing. The transition between youth and reserve/ first team football is a big step for a 17/18 year old. Several drop out of the game altogether at this age.Having an Under 21 league gives the late developer another couple of years physically and technically to mature/improve. The under 21 league is working well in the pro game and also in Europe. Great for players to learn the game and an excellent opportunity for coaches to gain experience. Its gives the club a realistic pathway from grassroots,youth, U21, reserve/first team. Clever clubs all have boys in from 4 yrs old to first team. Train them to be good enough to leave, treat them well enough they won't want to.

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Krooner,Football has become like follow the Leader,Football League sides did it first ,so they could import loads of Foreign youngsters.Like they were the first with Academys,time it gets down to our Level,what sort of Player, do Clubs expect to attract.Saves the big Clubs money,on their Scouting budget,if a minnow Club does catch one,who did fall threw the net.Change is good if it is in all peoples interests,this idea will fail,flat on lt's face,due to Finances alone.

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No doubt, there will be additional revenue raised for the CCL and local FAs. However, putting a player development head on, it is a great idea. It affords the clubs an opportunity to keep the younger members playing. The transition between youth and reserve/ first team football is a big step for a 17/18 year old. Several drop out of the game altogether at this age.Having an Under 21 league gives the late developer another couple of years physically and technically to mature/improve. The under 21 league is working well in the pro game and also in Europe. Great for players to learn the game and an excellent opportunity for coaches to gain experience. Its gives the club a realistic pathway from grassroots,youth, U21, reserve/first team. Clever clubs all have boys in from 4 yrs old to first team. Train them to be good enough to leave, treat them well enough they won't want to.

 

1966,have you been brainwashed,by Trevor Brooking,yeah we have loads of U21  PLAYERS BREAKING THROUGH,in the English game,NOT.The English Clubs scout them at 7 yrs old keep them till 17 yrs old then ditch them and break their Hearts,in favour of a more technically gifted Foreigner.

Edited by Smudge
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Now I dont disagree with what you have said Smudge but the current model doesnt work so we have to have a go at a different way and as I say if clubs dont want to do it then they dont have to.

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1966,have you been brainwashed,by Trevor Brooking,yeah we have loads of U21  PLAYERS BREAKING THROUGH,in the English game,NOT.The English Clubs scout them at 7 yrs old keep them till 17 yrs old then ditch them and break their Hearts,in favour of a more technically gifted Foreigner.

 

 

Hi Smudge, brainwashed by Sir Trevor Brooking not at all,  I have had the opportunity to discuss youth development with several senior members of the FA over the last few years. I do have a background in the pro game with coaching and academy management experience. I have disagreed and agreed with policies concerning youth development recently introduced by the FA. Do I think we have got it right or are anywhere near getting it right in this country, no we are years away. This discussion could take several pages and go on for several weeks which I guess the forum is for. 

 

My views are as follows, we haven't enough suitable facilities available for youth development. They are simply not enough floodlit grass or 3G pitches available. We have some great youth development coaches coming through. Although these specialist coaches will struggle to break into senior roles in the top pro clubs. Unfortunately we are still employing experienced ex pro players not experienced player development coaches in the top positions. How many Youth Development coaches are sitting on the board for the FA Commission? None. Contact time, due to the lack of quality facilities, actual time that the boys are coached is limited. The EPPP recommends 3 x1.5 hours a week plus a fixture as a minimum. League 1&2 clubs or Cat 3 Academy's simply cannot afford to hire the facilities for any longer even with the £290k grant. In Europe, the access to facilities is massively easier and cheaper. 

 

In answer to your comments about how our players are treated. Players are signed to pro clubs at Under 9 level, although its not uncommon for younger players to be invited in for training. Man City have Under 5s in pre academy's. Upto Under 11 they are signed for a year, Under 12 and above 2 years. They are reviewed constantly with player reviews given every 6 weeks. Any player falling below the expected standard is notified in these reviews with a development plan offered to assist him to get back to the required level. Releases are never a surprise, but yes the player is obviously very upset.

 

Now hears a thing, every player I've had to give a negative review to has been offered a development plan. A player has never refused this advice. If they continue to not meet the standard, they are offered the chance to play down a year group or join the development centres rather than remain in the pressurised academy environment. Has a player ever turned me down ? No, but guess what, the parents have. So rather than accept the support offered they drop out of the game or back into grassroots football. Parents are very proud of little Johnny being in an Academy, but are not proud to admit that Johnny is having a difficult time. So rather than support Johnny's development they teach him how to quit. There lies a massive problem in this country, we are not patient. We want results overnight. I have only released 2 players due to their ability, I have released 5 because of parents misconduct . I cannot record how many players the parents have removed from the Academy's. You can tell a man his wifes ugly, but you can't tell him his son is struggling at football. Although I've never tried telling him both. So have I broken hearts of kids in the academy's Ive worked in ? Yes, however I've taken every step to avoid it. Do you think if I said I recommend you join an Under 21 league he would accept my advice? Yes the player would, but would his dad? Probably not. A good player development coach working with an Under 21 team is worth his weight in gold. I can see an Under 21 league being incredibly successful if the club's ethos is player development and not results driven. It's got to be worth a go. 

 

Your next point, yes several clubs are financially able to bring in players from abroad. Why are these players technically/tactically better ?

 

My opinion is that the facilities, coaches and contact time in these countries are better than ours. We need a professional coach in every school, and in every grassroots club running a development program. Football should be offered after school every evening, as it is in many European countries. We all used to play walking home from school every night anyway. So lets do it under the guidance of a professional coach. 

 

So yes ,you might of guessed I think an Under 21 league is a great idea. Will clubs being able to afford to be in it ? Doubtful, maybe the FA will offer financial support to all the clubs that want to enter. 

 

Thanks for listening. 

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Yes very interesting 1966. Are you still working in that environment?

 

The CCL doesn't have a reserve league anymore as there wouldn't have been enough clubs. I run Westfield reserves along with two of my mates. We don't have a coaching badge between us - which I don't admit to being proud of - but we do have experience of playing the level and management. We were asked to do the job because of this and our remit was to bring the average age down and hopefully provide 1st team players in the future. We decided to go in the suburban league and the club backed us. So far five players have played in the 1st team and we've adapted well to the suburban. One of the most noticeable things for me has been the amount of clubs that have said how young a side we have. Our average age has been 19/20 in all games and we have never played more than four over 21s in a game. So basically we've been playing to those rules already BUT I think an important part of our players development has been testing themselves against older players and we're now seeing the benefit of that. My point is that I think reserve teams should be full of younger players but I'm not sure playing against each other will fully develop the players we want them to be in the level of football we're at. I think this may run the risk of being an extension of youth football and may actually hinder players development. Young players need to get exposure to the men's game.

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Hi Powelly,

 

Yes I am fortunate to still be working in the player development environment. 

 

I fully agree that exposure to the senior game is important but it should be phased in. Heres why? Please excuse me i really do not wish to sound patronising.

I sincerely hope i do not come across as that. Im better explaining with a pint in my hand.

 

Have you been able to play all of your players in different positions? Have you played several different formations and explained how to play them ?

Do you change tactics throughout the game and set each player, unit and team goals for each period of a game?

 

Forgive me but I haven't looked at your results so I don't know how you have been doing. 

 

In player development fixtures, we would set scenarios and individual, unit and team goals. If we lost 10-0 that was irrelevant as long as my left back, for example, achieved his individual goals for that game, my midfield three achieved their unit objectives and the team recognised the triggers to change tactics etc.

 

Now would your club support you if you lost 10-0 every week? Would the players still trust you? Would the parents trust you? 

 

No Im not arguing that the players do not need a physical challenge as well, they do but in a controlled manner. Playing development fixtures in an Under 21 league would take some of the physical challenges away from the players and allow them additional time to concentrate on their technical/ tactical abilities and roles and responsibilities.

 

As I said before, a club with a true player development ethos would be suited to such a league. It would not suit everyone.

 

Best of luck for the rest of the season, sounds like you are doing a top job.

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Can I just ask 1 question please,how many more leg ups are we gonna give lads who aint good enough to make it at this level ? its a waste of time and money as I have said before our scouting system is amongst the best if you aint made it by the time you are 16 forget it.

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Stuart Pearce found playing for Wealdstone at 21 by Coventry . Ian Wright, found playing for Greenwich Borough by Crystal Palace and signed at 22.

 

Very glad these 2 didn't take your advice duncs !!! 1247 football league appearances and 111 England caps between them.

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Ooh look. A quality thread on here for a change!
I went to Farnham v Wood in the SYL Cup tonight (we won 4-1 btw :) ) and we discussed this U21 thingy in depth on the way down.
Irrespective of whether it is a good idea or not, we were concerned re playing days for fixtures.
We have a small first team squad which is, occasionally, supplemented by our new under 18 youth team, which started this season.
No way could we field two sides on a Saturday which is why we folded our reserve team this season. That reserve side was full of 20somethings whose football was going nowhere (we retained the 2 or 3 decent ones this season) and home games costing us £200 to stage with little or no gates or bar take! No brainer we thought. Get a youth team and develop an infrastructure which can get the kids on board and make CWUFC type players for the future. Five, so far, have played for our first team this season. Early days, but things are OK at present
The crux of our discussion was we may be interested in a midweek league but not Saturdays. How can we go up against AFC Wimbledon, Fulham, QPR, Chelsea, Sutton, Kingstonian etc etc in attracting any support, thus funding the U21 set up, for this on a Saturday? We can't - end of.

We barely get 40 for CCL games although our "gates" are up this year. :ph34r:

So, we are a "don't know" for now but we have not written it off completely and there will be talks between our club and youth manager soon re this. :wub:

Edited by Chris Clapham
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Not patronising at all 1966.

We have played some lads in different positions and they've done well. Our results have been very up and down but generally we accept that.

I agree with the philosophy of 7 and 9 a side at youth level - the Dutch and Germans have been doing that for years and rotating player positions - in theory it's great and the more coaches that buy into that the better.

If you're ever free on a Saturday and want to discuss after a game then pop down to Westfield - I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.

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Hi Smudge, brainwashed by Sir Trevor Brooking not at all,  I have had the opportunity to discuss youth development with several senior members of the FA over the last few years. I do have a background in the pro game with coaching and academy management experience. I have disagreed and agreed with policies concerning youth development recently introduced by the FA. Do I think we have got it right or are anywhere near getting it right in this country, no we are years away. This discussion could take several pages and go on for several weeks which I guess the forum is for. 

 

My views are as follows, we haven't enough suitable facilities available for youth development. They are simply not enough floodlit grass or 3G pitches available. We have some great youth development coaches coming through. Although these specialist coaches will struggle to break into senior roles in the top pro clubs. Unfortunately we are still employing experienced ex pro players not experienced player development coaches in the top positions. How many Youth Development coaches are sitting on the board for the FA Commission? None. Contact time, due to the lack of quality facilities, actual time that the boys are coached is limited. The EPPP recommends 3 x1.5 hours a week plus a fixture as a minimum. League 1&2 clubs or Cat 3 Academy's simply cannot afford to hire the facilities for any longer even with the £290k grant. In Europe, the access to facilities is massively easier and cheaper. 

 

In answer to your comments about how our players are treated. Players are signed to pro clubs at Under 9 level, although its not uncommon for younger players to be invited in for training. Man City have Under 5s in pre academy's. Upto Under 11 they are signed for a year, Under 12 and above 2 years. They are reviewed constantly with player reviews given every 6 weeks. Any player falling below the expected standard is notified in these reviews with a development plan offered to assist him to get back to the required level. Releases are never a surprise, but yes the player is obviously very upset.

 

Now hears a thing, every player I've had to give a negative review to has been offered a development plan. A player has never refused this advice. If they continue to not meet the standard, they are offered the chance to play down a year group or join the development centres rather than remain in the pressurised academy environment. Has a player ever turned me down ? No, but guess what, the parents have. So rather than accept the support offered they drop out of the game or back into grassroots football. Parents are very proud of little Johnny being in an Academy, but are not proud to admit that Johnny is having a difficult time. So rather than support Johnny's development they teach him how to quit. There lies a massive problem in this country, we are not patient. We want results overnight. I have only released 2 players due to their ability, I have released 5 because of parents misconduct . I cannot record how many players the parents have removed from the Academy's. You can tell a man his wifes ugly, but you can't tell him his son is struggling at football. Although I've never tried telling him both. So have I broken hearts of kids in the academy's Ive worked in ? Yes, however I've taken every step to avoid it. Do you think if I said I recommend you join an Under 21 league he would accept my advice? Yes the player would, but would his dad? Probably not. A good player development coach working with an Under 21 team is worth his weight in gold. I can see an Under 21 league being incredibly successful if the club's ethos is player development and not results driven. It's got to be worth a go. 

 

Your next point, yes several clubs are financially able to bring in players from abroad. Why are these players technically/tactically better ?

 

My opinion is that the facilities, coaches and contact time in these countries are better than ours. We need a professional coach in every school, and in every grassroots club running a development program. Football should be offered after school every evening, as it is in many European countries. We all used to play walking home from school every night anyway. So lets do it under the guidance of a professional coach. 

 

So yes ,you might of guessed I think an Under 21 league is a great idea. Will clubs being able to afford to be in it ? Doubtful, maybe the FA will offer financial support to all the clubs that want to enter. 

 

Thanks for listening. 

Posts like this make the forum worth reading. Top marks fella.

Edited by HKP
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Stuart Pearce found playing for Wealdstone at 21 by Coventry . Ian Wright, found playing for Greenwich Borough by Crystal Palace and signed at 22.

 

Very glad these 2 didn't take your advice duncs !!! 1247 football league appearances and 111 England caps between them.

that was a long time ago 1066 I think you could even pass the ball back to the keeper then,now move forward 30 odd years and the scouts have learnt a lot since those days old chap
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I think you could use lots of examples to prove different arguments.  The change to 5, 7 and 9 a side football is the first step forward.  the next is to make the laws the same across all leagues as they differ in what you can and cannot do at the moment.  Then actually get money invested in pitches across the country not just in supposed "Poorer" areas.  This means places like Surrey Heath where I am that has had NO money from the Football foundation ever because it has been perceived as an "Affluent" area.  I know this is changing.  While our kids play on pitches that are provided at the moment we will never challenge the best.

 

IMHO I think an U21 league is a good idea and I do think a lot of clubs use their reserve teams like that anyway so allowing a number of over age players is a good idea.

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