Step 4 Farce Continues

[In The Know]

Latest news from the Southern League AGM. Wessex side Winchester City have been offered the spare place in South West to replace Flackwell Heath, who took the decision not to be promoted. They have been given time to meet certain deadlines, if they don't meet them, amazingly Salisbury will take the position. Sends out a terrible message to all ambitious Step 5 clubs the fact that Salisbury have even been considered. Spare a thought for Flackwell Heath who took the tough decision not to take the promotion place in the first place.

[In The Know]

I am reliably informed that Winchester had a better ppg than Camberley. What would of been interesting for me would have been, if offered would Camberley have taken the position in South West?

Edited June 20, 2015 by In The Know

[Big J R]

There is some chat about this on the old another site for those who visit it.

[VPCTFC]

All this caused by the Southern League deciding to relegate Clevedon Town for ground grading issues. That should have been notified to the FA at the beginning of April before they done the allocations.

I haven't looked in here for weeks so I don't know what's already been said but here's my view:

 

You can't blame Flackwell for refusing the promotion based on being switched into the SW Division but, as the Ryman League had already had their AGM, this caused the Southern League some issues as they couldn't just ask for a reshuffle at step 4.

The talk was that Highmoor Ibis would get the promotion spot - they finished second to Flackwell in the Hellenic and would have been the team promoted if Flackwell hadn't applied but they're saying they weren't asked by the FA despite being willing to play in the SW Division. No one seems to know if they have the ground grading though.

 

I saw on Fleet Town's Twitter today the news from the Southern League AGM. I couldn't believe Salisbury were in the mix for the place. I checked with our secretary and we hadn't been asked. We were aware of the possibility of being placed in the SW Division next season if we'd got promoted. We would have preferred the Central Division of course but I think the club decided we would take promotion to the SW if it was offered.

 

As Winchester got more points per game than us (we got 86 points from 40 games, they got 89) we can't argue with them being asked before us and it's reported they have now secured their place in the league after paying off a £2500 fine owed by the previous regime.

If Salisbury had been put in above us I don't know what we as a club could have done. It's far too late to go down the appeal route.

The thing is - there are other step 5 teams who finished second in their league with a higher PPG than Winchester got but, as some leagues have had their AGMs, that rules those clubs out of the running.

We have to apply for promotion by November 30th each season. It's now June 20th and step 4 has finally been sorted out. Nearly seven months. Ludicrous.

 

Oh well, we'll have another go at promotion this season. We know it won't be easy but we'll see what happens.

 

See you in the bar.

 

VP.

[Big J R]

In the words of many a back-bench MP....

 

"You couldn't make it up, could you ??"

[E&E Rich]

For what it's worth, I think Flackwell are the main culprits here.

 

You can't apply for promotion, pay the money, go along with the whole procedure and then decide to drop just because you're placed somewhere you didn't like. Let's face it, like Camberley, they must have been well aware of the possibility of a move to the South and West as Beaconsfield and Slough nearly went recently when they were both at Step Four and they are further West. 

 

If the finances are so fragile that they could survive at Central but not South West, then they were an accident waiting to happen at Step Four and maybe there need to be more stringent checks on clubs who apply. Maybe even a bond of money that would be refunded at the end of the completed season. Pooling at this step is still the best way forward in my opinion but the FA need to do something that will prevent clubs doing this once the allocations have been made. If there is no penalty we will see this happening more and more regularly in the future "we'll only go up if we're placed where we want" - it will become a lottery and no one will know where they stand until the middle of July.

 

I would suggest that clubs who say they will apply and then pull out after the allocations are made should be blocked from applying in the following season. The reasons for not going up can only really be two. 1) They don't fancy it, or 2) financial, and in either of these cases a further season without the possibility of promotion would do no harm. Sure, Clevedon failed on the lights and maybe they should also be blocked for a season but why those sort of checks weren't done months ago I have no idea. Clevedon v Salisbury in the Vase final maybe?

 

As for Winchester coming up ahead of others, if I were an ambitious club with a better PPG than them I'd be annoyed, regardless of whether or not my league had held it's AGM. Also, if Highmoor Ibis weren't accepted, were Ascot asked instead? As the third placed Hellenic League club, and assuming they applied, then they should be ahead of anyone else, even if they did finish third. Maybe they were asked, I don't know, but Redhill also advise that they were asked about a transfer to the South and West. Ignoring the obvious travel issues for them, either they are relegated or they are not.

 

Bottom line. The whole process needs to be clarified and advised sooner because the knock on effect so late in the day for so many other clubs is massive.

[Carthorse]

I herd Redhill were offered to stay up be it in Southern South West but they turned it down!

[Big J R]

I herd Redhill were offered to stay up be it in Southern South West but they turned it down!

 

Very true Carthorse.

 

http://www.combinedcountiesleague.co.uk/news.php?ID=783

[NonLeague i]

I dont blame Flackwell in the slightest. The south west is a hellish league with extremely long days and ridiculous costs which could easily cripple the best of run clubs.

 

We look at guildford and fleet town for example who have struggled in that league in previous seasons and you have to ask why?

 

After all, players arent given premiership wages so is it fair to ask them to travel so far especially if what we are told is believed to be true that many players play for free. 

 

Its a very difficult decision for ANY team to turn down a promotion because lets face it everyone has the ambition to play in the highest league possible even if you do get relegated straight back down. No player/manager and i would home club official would be happy to coast along at step 5 with no ambition to push their clubs higher.

 

The dismantling of the league system by the FA is the real culprit and is just another example of them ruining and disrespecting grassroots football

[Smudge]

For what it's worth, I think Flackwell are the main culprits here.

 

You can't apply for promotion, pay the money, go along with the whole procedure and then decide to drop just because you're placed somewhere you didn't like. Let's face it, like Camberley, they must have been well aware of the possibility of a move to the South and West as Beaconsfield and Slough nearly went recently when they were both at Step Four and they are further West. 

 

If the finances are so fragile that they could survive at Central but not South West, then they were an accident waiting to happen at Step Four and maybe there need to be more stringent checks on clubs who apply. Maybe even a bond of money that would be refunded at the end of the completed season. Pooling at this step is still the best way forward in my opinion but the FA need to do something that will prevent clubs doing this once the allocations have been made. If there is no penalty we will see this happening more and more regularly in the future "we'll only go up if we're placed where we want" - it will become a lottery and no one will know where they stand until the middle of July.

 

I would suggest that clubs who say they will apply and then pull out after the allocations are made should be blocked from applying in the following season. The reasons for not going up can only really be two. 1) They don't fancy it, or 2) financial, and in either of these cases a further season without the possibility of promotion would do no harm. Sure, Clevedon failed on the lights and maybe they should also be blocked for a season but why those sort of checks weren't done months ago I have no idea. Clevedon v Salisbury in the Vase final maybe?

 

As for Winchester coming up ahead of others, if I were an ambitious club with a better PPG than them I'd be annoyed, regardless of whether or not my league had held it's AGM. Also, if Highmoor Ibis weren't accepted, were Ascot asked instead? As the third placed Hellenic League club, and assuming they applied, then they should be ahead of anyone else, even if they did finish third. Maybe they were asked, I don't know, but Redhill also advise that they were asked about a transfer to the South and West. Ignoring the obvious travel issues for them, either they are relegated or they are not.

 

Bottom line. The whole process needs to be clarified and advised sooner because the knock on effect so late in the day for so many other clubs is massive.

 

Rich,so if Epsom and Ewell were offered promotion to Step 4 in the Southern South West League next year,they would jump at the chance,no matter what,your not far from Redhill? It could happen?

[E&E Rich]

Smudge, don't be stupid please. As usual you are missing the point. Redhill rightly turned down a spot there and just to clarify, both us and they would also have turned down an offer for the Northern Premier League too. You always try to bring it back to my club which is irrelevant in this discussion, as most of your points increasingly seem to be.

 

The fact is that Flackwell are near that particular border. It is a chance, indeed a racing certainty that they will get placed there in future, especially while so many clubs in Kent continue to progress which brings the Isthmian boundary further east (except for the Waltons due to Theo's involvement).

 

My point is that either you are ready for Step Four or you aren't. If your finances are so stretched just by adding a bit of travel then you shouldn't be applying anyway. Yes, I accept that being told in June is not great, but I don't see Burnham or Marlow throwing their toys out of the pram and they were moved too remember. They'll cut costs in other ways.

 

Will Flackwell Heath apply for promotion next year, especially as they will almost certainly go into the S & W next year with Marlow and Burnham already there? That's an interesting one to watch when the applications go in. The same applies for situations like Sholing who took a voluntary demotion not long ago. If they drop for financial reasons then a season or two of consolidation at this level will do them no harm. 

 

I sympathise with Flackwell; it is a nice place with nice people, or at least it certainly used to be when we played them. I even had my stag day there back in 2002, but people seem to forget not that long ago they were in the Isthmian League frequently travelling to Essex, not to mention Epsom, Croydon, and of course Eastbourne and Lewes on regular occasions. I don't see a significant difference in those trip journey times (round the M25 remember) to the ones they would have faced to the South and West from where they are personally. Of course they'd rather play in the Central, but someone has to make some tough decisions at the FA and some people on this forum bleat that it's tough but don't come up with a better alternative. Actually my alternative suggestion (that sits at www.eefconline.co.uk under the reshuffle section) would solve these problems, but that's for another day.

 

Clubs who withdraw from the process once the allocations are released need to be told by the F.A. that they will not be considered for promotion the following season, but whilst there is no significant penalty against clubs who do drop out, except the loss of their original £120 for applying, there will be no deterrent and we will see this happening time and time again. This will get very messy.

Edited June 22, 2015 by E&E Rich

[Smudge]

Apologies Rich,I MUST REMEMBER to follow the GOSPEL OF RICH,or else my posts are stupid.Dont think they ever visited Epsom though,Banstead maybe.

[Carthorse]

Remember playing Flackwell Heath in the Athenian League Days

[Part Time Par]

Clubs who withdraw from the process once the allocations are released need to be told by the F.A. that they will not be considered for promotion the following season, but whilst there is no significant penalty against clubs who do drop out, except the loss of their original £120 for applying, there will be no deterrent and we will see this happening time and time again. This will get very messy.

 

But when the original allocations were released they were in the Central Division. It was only 2 weeks later that themselves, Marlow and Burnham were moved.

 

1400 miles to over 3000 miles travel having budgeted on original allocation is a hell of a lot of difference.

 

Maybe they should get there £120 back having been mucked about so much. I mean we are only on version 4 now!

[Tel]

Promotion at all levels is what football is about and most clubs can call what league they will end up in. The clubs on the edge of each region must realise they can and do get directed to a league not ideal to them. As was mentioned teams from Kent/ Sussex area are likely to go Ryman while Surrey/ Hampshire/ Buckinghamshire are as likely to go Southern SW rather than Central.

 

Now cost can spirall out of hand not only player costs but travel costs too

 

My view, level 5 is good, localalish football to a reasonable standard, a chance to progress to the later stages of the Vase and most important it seems no long distances to travel.

 

Unless there is a sugar daddy bankrolling the club, I think most teams without a regular support of 200 which isn't many are bound to struggle.

 

I can here you say that's logic, but teams applying for promotion must be aware!

[Tel]

Sorry I forgot Middlesex clubs they can go Ryman South or North, Southern Central or South West depending where they play their football of course.

 

I feel for any club to be told they will play in the more local league then told at a later date they will be in a league of death to them anyway

[E&E Rich]

Apologies Rich,I MUST REMEMBER to follow the GOSPEL OF RICH,or else my posts are stupid.Dont think they ever visited Epsom though,Banstead maybe.

Another incorrect post Smudge. Flackwell visited us many times from 1987 before we left in 1993. Regardless of this, Banstead was a similar distance.

[E&E Rich]

But when the original allocations were released they were in the Central Division. It was only 2 weeks later that themselves, Marlow and Burnham were moved.

 

1400 miles to over 3000 miles travel having budgeted on original allocation is a hell of a lot of difference.

 

Maybe they should get there £120 back having been mucked about so much. I mean we are only on version 4 now!

I understand your point with regards to the short notice. However, they must have been aware that they could be placed in the S&W back when they applied, so must have been prepared for the increase in distances.

 

I would also be interested to know the exact distances involved too. Of course they would be less in the Central, but I'm not convinced that the difference is as much as you are implying.

 

All I am suggesting is that if you choose not to take promotion when you've applied, you should be blocked from applying the following year if you resign after the allocations come out. No fines, no points deductions. Hardly draconian but it will stop this sort of thing happening more frequently, as I fear will be the case in future if clubs see they can do it without penalty. Clubs have to be prepared to go up if they've applied or our argument at Step Five for more clubs going up is hit below the waterline, as is also the case when leagues don't promote anyone, but the difference is that the clubs haven't strung anyone along for six months first.

 

Unless anyone has a better way to stop this close season merry go round?

[@BedfontFeltham]

E&E Rich. How do you prepare for the increase in distances?? Think the FA are expecting a lot from clubs having to travel over 300 miles to play football with no or hardly no funding from the FA. Guildford city are proof of this. The FA nearly killed that club.

Edited June 23, 2015 by @BedfontFeltham

[@BedfontFeltham]

And just to add. Should Guildford get their act together and get in a position to be promoted again will they be wiser from past experiences and stay at step 5 or risk struggling for players again in the SW league