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Referees Reports

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I ask the following question as I know that there is an array of knowledge on this forum, that there are many officials on this forum and that there are also CCL committie members using this forum:

 

What is the point of clubs reporting on referees and his/her assistant's???

 

1. What actually happens to the reports?

2. What happens if it is bad report?

3. What can you legally put in a report?

4. Are officials repremanded for poor performances?

5. Are officials given points for good performances to move up the refereeing ladder? Are they deducted points for poor performances?

6. Are clubs penalised for not submitting reports?

7. Why are no officials assessed in the CCL? (I have not seen an assessor all season!)

 

Quite a demanding post for my first one on this forum, I only ask so I can understand the process.

 

Your views and opinions are welcome.

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I ask the following question as I know that there is an array of knowledge on this forum, that there are many officials on this forum and that there are also CCL committie members using this forum:

 

What is the point of clubs reporting on referees and his/her assistant's???

 

1. What actually happens to the reports? - You need an answer from a committee person for this

2. What happens if it is bad report? - As above

3. What can you legally put in a report? - The Truth

4. Are officials repremanded for poor performances? - Yes

5. Are officials given points for good performances to move up the refereeing ladder? Are they deducted points for poor performances? - The referees with the best marks will be up for promotion, the ones with the worst will get pushed back down a level

6. Are clubs penalised for not submitting reports? - Clubs have to submit a report if they mark the ref below a certian level

7. Why are no officials assessed in the CCL? (I have not seen an assessor all season!) - Wrong. The league have to have at least 50% of Premier games assessed otherwise they could lose their Supply status

 

Quite a demanding post for my first one on this forum, I only ask so I can understand the process.

 

Your views and opinions are welcome.

 

Answered to the best of my knowledge

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I ask the following question as I know that there is an array of knowledge on this forum, that there are many officials on this forum and that there are also CCL committie members using this forum:

 

What is the point of clubs reporting on referees and his/her assistant's???

 

1. What actually happens to the reports?

2. What happens if it is bad report?

3. What can you legally put in a report?

4. Are officials repremanded for poor performances?

5. Are officials given points for good performances to move up the refereeing ladder? Are they deducted points for poor performances?

6. Are clubs penalised for not submitting reports?

7. Why are no officials assessed in the CCL? (I have not seen an assessor all season!)

 

Quite a demanding post for my first one on this forum, I only ask so I can understand the process.

 

Your views and opinions are welcome.

 

As far as i know there were assessors at our game yesterday ,and some of our other home games this season !.....so officials are assessed not sure about step seven games and below that .

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I ask the following question as I know that there is an array of knowledge on this forum, that there are many officials on this forum and that there are also CCL committie members using this forum:

 

What is the point of clubs reporting on referees and his/her assistant's???

 

1. What actually happens to the reports?

2. What happens if it is bad report?

3. What can you legally put in a report?

4. Are officials repremanded for poor performances?

5. Are officials given points for good performances to move up the refereeing ladder? Are they deducted points for poor performances?

6. Are clubs penalised for not submitting reports?

7. Why are no officials assessed in the CCL? (I have not seen an assessor all season!)

 

Quite a demanding post for my first one on this forum, I only ask so I can understand the process.

 

Your views and opinions are welcome.

 

As far as i know there were assessors at our game yesterday ,and some of our other home games this season !.....so officials are assessed not sure about step seven games and below that .

 

I WONDER WHAT THE ACCESSOR THOUGHT OF GUILDFORDS GAME YESTERDAY ?

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I ask the following question as I know that there is an array of knowledge on this forum, that there are many officials on this forum and that there are also CCL committie members using this forum:

 

What is the point of clubs reporting on referees and his/her assistant's???

 

1. What actually happens to the reports?

2. What happens if it is bad report?

3. What can you legally put in a report?

4. Are officials repremanded for poor performances?

5. Are officials given points for good performances to move up the refereeing ladder? Are they deducted points for poor performances?

6. Are clubs penalised for not submitting reports?

7. Why are no officials assessed in the CCL? (I have not seen an assessor all season!)

 

Quite a demanding post for my first one on this forum, I only ask so I can understand the process.

 

Your views and opinions are welcome.

 

As far as i know there were assessors at our game yesterday ,and some of our other home games this season !.....so officials are assessed not sure about step seven games and below that .

 

I WONDER WHAT THE ACCESSOR THOUGHT OF GUILDFORDS GAME YESTERDAY ?

 

 

Good question Nice Guy. Forgetting for a moment the shocking incident after the game, it was an "interesting" performance by the official. Just as an example, there were 3 penalties in the game, 2 for trips and one for pulling a player back - not one of the offending players was cautioned. For the record 2 of the penalties were conceded by Guildford.

 

Going back to Ace 1 who asks what happens to any report on a referee, I know we have submitted a report this season where we thought the referee was poor and we ended up getting fined by the league because they didn't consider the report was acceptable. No reason was given and no further explanation or guidance was offered for future occasions. I have spoken to the secretary of another club, a well respected scretary and a well respected club, and the same thing has happened to them.

 

Guess what both clubs do now. If the referee is poor he is given the lowest mark acceptable without having to write a report. In my opinion this does nothing to help the standards improve but why should clubs risk getting fined?

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I would suggest their reports were ill thought out and had no basis. The amount of times I hear a referee didnt have a very good game and it turns out that is based on one decision during the game. I watched a game recently where the referee had a very good game yet was berated by a manger at the end becuase he didnt give his side a penalty that the manager thought he should have had. My guess he was marked low because of that one decision and not on the basis he had a really good game.

 

 

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I would suggest their reports were ill thought out and had no basis. The amount of times I hear a referee didnt have a very good game and it turns out that is based on one decision during the game. I watched a game recently where the referee had a very good game yet was berated by a manger at the end becuase he didnt give his side a penalty that the manager thought he should have had. My guess he was marked low because of that one decision and not on the basis he had a really good game.

 

 

 

Not the case Krooner. Both sides in this instance thought the ref. was poor. His general decision making was poor as was his man management and his assistants might as well have been Sunday morning club assistants for all the notice he took of them. My real point here is than fining clubs for getting it wrong but not offering any guidance on what they are doing wrong will mean that clubs will take the easy way out and give the minimum mark.

 

I would also add that the management are not involved in any way in marking the referee at our club. The mark we give is usually discussed by a couple of club officers, one of whom is a qualified referee.

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Fair point in there Jake in what you have put in bold.

 

I really cannot understand the circumstances under which clubs would ever be fined for submitting low referee marks PROVIDED:

 

- the CCFL marking form is correctly completed & submitted within 48 hours

- the comments made are constructive and not offensive or personal in nature, nor based on one single decision over the course of 90 mins

 

If you look at page 169 of CCFL Handbook you will find a very detailed guide as to how referees should be marked. I have been associated with CCFL for many years and can assure everyone that clubs will not be fined for submitting low referee markings PROVIDED the report is considered and based on the overall performence of the match official. I'm afraid that marking officials the lowest possible mark without a report does all of us a mis-service. I do agree, however, that some feedback from CCFL would help to satisfy clubs that their reports have been actioned.

 

I will guarentee you there is more to this than meets the eye!

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Middle Man. I do think Jake has a point about getting info back. Fine by all means but at least let them know what the problem is. Also agree with your last sentence.

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- the comments made are constructive and not offensive or personal in nature, nor based on one single decision over the course of 90 mins

 

If you look at page 169 of CCFL Handbook you will find a very detailed guide as to how referees should be marked.

 

Sorry MiddleMan but I have to disagree with you on both of these points.

 

As JakesFanClub mentions above, we have been fined this season for attempting to provide constructive criticism that I can assure you was balanced and in no way offensive or personal. If the league wants reliable and accurate markings then why punish clubs for trying to provide them with it? The reports we write are only ever intended to be constructive, but what is the point if there's no obvious retribution? A club gets fined for all sorts of things, quite rightly, but the original point of this thread is very valid - what happens to the referees when they have a poor game? It works on both sides - the league might not deem a report as constructive, but equally us clubs may not deem a referee's performance as 'constructive'! It's all a matter of opinions and stifling them will not help in the long run.

 

As for your second point, page 209 of the 'digital' copy of the handbook shows the league guide to marking referees. This is not detailed in the slightest, it is more a guide to how to count up to 100. The guide essentially boils down to:

 

"The referee was extremely/very/reasonably/quite accurate in decision making, controlled the game extremely/very/reasonably/quite well and communicated extremely/very/reasonably/quite well with the players, establishing extremely/very/reasonably/quite degree of fair play.

Mark as appropriate to choice of extremely/very/reasonably/quite."

 

Tell me, what is constructive about that?!

Edited by Guildford Sweeney

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Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

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Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

 

Good response regarding the Suburban League.

Even Smudge will be impressed by that.

Would like to think that the CCL has similar guidelines

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Sorry to repeat myself, but page 169 of CCFL Handbook give a really detailed explanation of referee scoring, and any experienced club sec should be fully aware of the process and method. One tip - mark the referee on day following game. This should give you more space for a properly considered opinion, minus the emotion. Realise there is no way we can get to the bottom of this particular case via the Forum, but if I were your club sec I would have asked for an explanation. My experience of dealing with CCFL management has generally been positive - providiing you approach the subject in a reasonable manner. As I said before, there is more to this that we know about.

 

 

 

Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

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- the comments made are constructive and not offensive or personal in nature, nor based on one single decision over the course of 90 mins

 

If you look at page 169 of CCFL Handbook you will find a very detailed guide as to how referees should be marked.

 

Sorry MiddleMan but I have to disagree with you on both of these points.

 

As JakesFanClub mentions above, we have been fined this season for attempting to provide constructive criticism that I can assure you was balanced and in no way offensive or personal. If the league wants reliable and accurate markings then why punish clubs for trying to provide them with it? The reports we write are only ever intended to be constructive, but what is the point if there's no obvious retribution? A club gets fined for all sorts of things, quite rightly, but the original point of this thread is very valid - what happens to the referees when they have a poor game? It works on both sides - the league might not deem a report as constructive, but equally us clubs may not deem a referee's performance as 'constructive'! It's all a matter of opinions and stifling them will not help in the long run.

 

As for your second point, page 209 of the 'digital' copy of the handbook shows the league guide to marking referees. This is not detailed in the slightest, it is more a guide to how to count up to 100. The guide essentially boils down to:

 

"The referee was extremely/very/reasonably/quite accurate in decision making, controlled the game extremely/very/reasonably/quite well and communicated extremely/very/reasonably/quite well with the players, establishing extremely/very/reasonably/quite degree of fair play.

Mark as appropriate to choice of extremely/very/reasonably/quite."

 

Tell me, what is constructive about that?!

 

 

As we hear many times during a game from all three officials..............In my opinion!!! A referees report is surely an opinion of what that person has just witnessed?

 

A referees report should be constructive however; it is an opinion.

 

Definition of Opinion:

 

A personal view, attitude or appraisal.

 

How can a club be fined for having an opinion?????

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- the comments made are constructive and not offensive or personal in nature, nor based on one single decision over the course of 90 mins

 

If you look at page 169 of CCFL Handbook you will find a very detailed guide as to how referees should be marked.

 

Sorry MiddleMan but I have to disagree with you on both of these points.

 

As JakesFanClub mentions above, we have been fined this season for attempting to provide constructive criticism that I can assure you was balanced and in no way offensive or personal. If the league wants reliable and accurate markings then why punish clubs for trying to provide them with it? The reports we write are only ever intended to be constructive, but what is the point if there's no obvious retribution? A club gets fined for all sorts of things, quite rightly, but the original point of this thread is very valid - what happens to the referees when they have a poor game? It works on both sides - the league might not deem a report as constructive, but equally us clubs may not deem a referee's performance as 'constructive'! It's all a matter of opinions and stifling them will not help in the long run.

 

As for your second point, page 209 of the 'digital' copy of the handbook shows the league guide to marking referees. This is not detailed in the slightest, it is more a guide to how to count up to 100. The guide essentially boils down to:

 

"The referee was extremely/very/reasonably/quite accurate in decision making, controlled the game extremely/very/reasonably/quite well and communicated extremely/very/reasonably/quite well with the players, establishing extremely/very/reasonably/quite degree of fair play.

Mark as appropriate to choice of extremely/very/reasonably/quite."

 

Tell me, what is constructive about that?!

 

yes agree,stupidity of words,Change the words for Excellent/Very good/Good/Poor/V/Poor.

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yes agree,stupidity of words,Change the words for Excellent/Very good/Good/Poor/V/Poor.

 

I'm not bemoaning the choice of words, Smudgester!

Edited by Guildford Sweeney

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Middleman, if your "more to this than meets the eye" comment is some veiled reference to Saturday, then you are way off the beaten track. The only reason I got involved in this discussion is because of what happened when we reported a referee earlier in the season and having since heard another club ended up in the same position, I felt it was relevant to the topic under discussion i.e. Replying to Referees Reports. The timing is pure co-incidence.

 

Like you I have been involved with the CCL for many years, including a lengthy spell as secretary of one club and therefore have had a fair amount of experience of marking referees. I asume the fine is a new fund raiser. Perhaps the League need to raise even more money to support the Guernsey project!!!

Edited by Jakesfanclub

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Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

 

 

I have a couple of ells for sale if interested. £20 ono ;)

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Sorry to repeat myself, but page 169 of CCFL Handbook give a really detailed explanation of referee scoring, and any experienced club sec should be fully aware of the process and method. One tip - mark the referee on day following game. This should give you more space for a properly considered opinion, minus the emotion. Realise there is no way we can get to the bottom of this particular case via the Forum, but if I were your club sec I would have asked for an explanation. My experience of dealing with CCFL management has generally been positive - providiing you approach the subject in a reasonable manner. As I said before, there is more to this that we know about.

 

 

 

Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

 

 

Middleman quotes:-'mark the Referee on the following day' ,what and risk a Fine for late arrival.My own personal dealings with the C.C.L. Lead me to believe that they are all about the rules, never answer a question.Re:- Younghammerwhitby,3 weeks ago spoke to Alan Constable re this matter,nothing has changed,no meeting has taken place.Likewise Surrey F.A.,yhw Was told to ring Cobham Management and Committee Members by Caroline McRoyal which he did,with 1 reply from Damian Ray.Today I spoke to the new Surrey F.A. welfare officer,Mr.Frank Thompson who said he would contact Y.H.W by the end of the week,after he had made his enquiries.But I would bet they THE C.C.L. have FINED KNAPHILL for breaking the rules,that moneys already in the BANK.DISGRACEFUL!!!!!!!NO MONEY IN IT WHY DO IT.

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Mr Smudge - referee report forms need to be submitted within 48 hours and are processed on-line, so completing the form following day is a non-issue. Believe me, immediatley following a game is not usually the best time to make a considered judgement! And to our colleague at Guildford, confirm this debate has nothing at all to do with the events of last Saturday. Again - there is no such thing as a fine for a properly completed report form sent within the time frame.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to repeat myself, but page 169 of CCFL Handbook give a really detailed explanation of referee scoring, and any experienced club sec should be fully aware of the process and method. One tip - mark the referee on day following game. This should give you more space for a properly considered opinion, minus the emotion. Realise there is no way we can get to the bottom of this particular case via the Forum, but if I were your club sec I would have asked for an explanation. My experience of dealing with CCFL management has generally been positive - providiing you approach the subject in a reasonable manner. As I said before, there is more to this that we know about.

 

 

 

Can olny answer re the Suburban FL but woud expect its the same in all leagues

 

There is no fee for the referees report form as one has to be sent to the referees manager after every game within two working days by both clubs and these are done by emai now

I would think the fine is for the ate arrival of the form

 

The committee are advised when the remarks are really bad, and the mark is very very low, and if the referee gets low marks from both teams, the referee is then asked for his comments off the game by the referees manager If the committee feels that the referee needs looking at , a member of the committee is at his next game, and if a level 4 referee, an assessor will also be there If the committee also wish, a report from both assistant referees is also requested if a major incident has occured during a game

 

If the report is based on just one incident, ie a penalty in the last minute given or not given, the referees manager will write back to the club advising them that more comments regarding the whole game is required, and not just the one incident and also the page in the handbook which gives help on marking the referees

 

 

Middleman quotes:-'mark the Referee on the following day' ,what and risk a Fine for late arrival.My own personal dealings with the C.C.L. Lead me to believe that they are all about the rules, never answer a question.Re:- Younghammerwhitby,3 weeks ago spoke to Alan Constable re this matter,nothing has changed,no meeting has taken place.Likewise Surrey F.A.,yhw Was told to ring Cobham Management and Committee Members by Caroline McRoyal which he did,with 1 reply from Damian Ray.Today I spoke to the new Surrey F.A. welfare officer,Mr.Frank Thompson who said he would contact Y.H.W by the end of the week,after he had made his enquiries.But I would bet they THE C.C.L. have FINED KNAPHILL for breaking the rules,that moneys already in the BANK.DISGRACEFUL!!!!!!!NO MONEY IN IT WHY DO IT.

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- the comments made are constructive and not offensive or personal in nature, nor based on one single decision over the course of 90 mins

 

If you look at page 169 of CCFL Handbook you will find a very detailed guide as to how referees should be marked.

 

Sorry MiddleMan but I have to disagree with you on both of these points.

 

As JakesFanClub mentions above, we have been fined this season for attempting to provide constructive criticism that I can assure you was balanced and in no way offensive or personal. If the league wants reliable and accurate markings then why punish clubs for trying to provide them with it? The reports we write are only ever intended to be constructive, but what is the point if there's no obvious retribution? A club gets fined for all sorts of things, quite rightly, but the original point of this thread is very valid - what happens to the referees when they have a poor game? It works on both sides - the league might not deem a report as constructive, but equally us clubs may not deem a referee's performance as 'constructive'! It's all a matter of opinions and stifling them will not help in the long run.

 

As for your second point, page 209 of the 'digital' copy of the handbook shows the league guide to marking referees. This is not detailed in the slightest, it is more a guide to how to count up to 100. The guide essentially boils down to:

 

"The referee was extremely/very/reasonably/quite accurate in decision making, controlled the game extremely/very/reasonably/quite well and communicated extremely/very/reasonably/quite well with the players, establishing extremely/very/reasonably/quite degree of fair play.

Mark as appropriate to choice of extremely/very/reasonably/quite."

 

Tell me, what is constructive about that?!

 

 

 

The Green copy of the Team sheet states "If any area is marked 'poor' or the total mark is 40 or less, detailed, constructive, developmental comments are required". I suspect the fines were issued because the comments (if any) did not conform to this requirement?

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DETAILED,CONSTRUCTIVE,DEVELOPMENTAL,COMMENTS ARE REQUIRED.Could you enlighten us further as to what should be written?MR REFEREES SECRETARY?

Edited by Smudge

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I would base it on:

 

Control of game (allowing game to flow, stopping the game, cautions etc)

Time keeping

Appearance

Communication

Application of the laws of the game (although difficult for the majority of those who do not fully understand them)

 

And of course, back up with examples (sounds like GCSE's all over again).

 

 

 

 

 

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