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Big J R

And I thought Doctores...............

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.............. were supposed to preserve life !

 

So much for the Hypocratic oath and Muslim doctors.

 

Just ship 'em all home !

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E, by Gum !

 

I've just caught up on yesterdays papers and there's a picture of a security man at Glasgow Airport hosing the 'Doctor' down, who was on fire after setting his 'bomb' off !

 

Personally, I'd have let the fecker burn !

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FECK ME !

 

All 8 of the b@stards are or were employees of the N.H.S.

 

Says loads for our National Security Service, dunnit ?

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i was in the hospital on sunday and out of about 15 nurses/doctors all were of asian original(mainly phillipino) and one was irish.

Either we can't produce nurses/doctors or they are cheaper which means its just another proffesion where we import people in and the people already in this country can't get jobs because these nurses are willing to take crap wages.I mean how can a nurse afford to live anywhere near london on minimum wages.

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Thing is, thanks to that idiot Hewitt, we have a large number of junior doctors, (which can mean up to eight years after first qualifying), who currently don't have a job. These are the folks who keep our hospitals running, with the support of the Nursing Staff.

 

Quote:

The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.

 

Dr Everington said: 'Thousands of juniors still have no idea whether they can continue their professional training after August 1 2007.

 

"We hear every day about highly talented junior doctors who may seek their futures abroad now that their careers appear blighted by this crisis.

 

"Many valuable junior doctors are considering leaving medicine altogether. What a scandal and loss to the Health Service" he added.

 

It is ridiculous we are hiring people who want to blow us up, when loads of doctors trained in this country are unable to get a job.

 

The Government haven't got a clue!

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Originally Posted By: urchin_mentalist
i was in the hospital on sunday and out of about 15 nurses/doctors all were of asian original(mainly phillipino) and one was irish.
Either we can't produce nurses/doctors or they are cheaper which means its just another proffesion where we import people in and the people already in this country can't get jobs because these nurses are willing to take crap wages.I mean how can a nurse afford to live anywhere near london on minimum wages.


maybe if we paid Nurses, and medical staff a decent wage during the 80s, 90s and 00s, we wouldnt need to fill gaps in the NHS with applicants from abroad.
The whole medical profession is full of workers with low esteem. Successive governments havent valued them, society doesnt value them and for the auxillary workers (porters, cleaners, etc) it's even worse.

With low pay comes low quality....I am afraid, hence the lower standards today in the NHS
The answer in my simple mind, is clear.
Thin out the middle management level. Let Nurses nurse and let a few dedicated managers manage staff and resources, rather than the whole layer of middle manbagers we have now.

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Agreed, up to a point. Yes, the medical professions should be held in high esteem and rewarded appropriately - including decent conditions, hours etc. as well as salary of course. THere can be no question that 'management' - ho ho, a bunch of inky fingered clerks and pompous penpushers and Excel whizzes - should be culled not only numerically but in terms of power too.

 

But as I understand it, and as the clip somewhere above indicates, we have something like 12000 doctors unable to find employment! Let's employ them before staff from abroad, eh?

 

This of course is a general point, nothing to do with the 'bombers'. On that matter, I agree that security is alarmingly (but unsurprisingly) slack. So even if they weren't terrorists, how rigorously are their CVs and qualifications checked?

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Quote:

The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.

 

 

that was the quote, I dont think you can use that in any argument !

(1) It's a prediction !

(2) Though qualified some who have undergone training wont seek employment in the medical profession, never mind the "specialist training posts" that the quote suggests

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Originally Posted By: Greg_Dyke
Quote:
The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.


that was the quote, I dont think you can use that in any argument !
(1) It's a prediction !
(2) Though qualified some who have undergone training wont seek employment in the medical profession, never mind the "specialist training posts" that the quote suggests


So what are you saying - there is no problem with the junior doctors situation and that the BMA know less what they are talking about than Patricia Hewitt who was forced to apologise and quit before she got the sack? (Gordon Brown apparently remarked in the week before he became PM " Do I have to sit here and let her lose me the next election", or words to that effect)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your point (2). The greater majority need to continue their training up to becoming a consultant or by moving into General Practice rather than leave medicine. The system was intended to shorten Doctors training from 14 years to 11, but they cut the budget so there were less jobs available when due to the changes it meant there were more applicants than normal to apply for them, so many who wanted to continue training still will be faced with taking a lesser job without any training, becoming a locum or to go to another country to complete their training. My point was why are we forcing people trained here out and recruiting doctors from overseas?


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I don't think you should confuse the utter mess the government made of the reforms of the training of junior doctors with the "coming over here and taking our jobs" argument... There are something like 90,000 overseas trained doctors in the UK, kick them all out and you'd have a shortfall of 78000. I know that's a crude sum, but it brings me on to my main rant...

 

For me this is a symptom of the failings of the British government over the past 30 years to ensure that we remain a world leader in science, engineering and medicine. (Before anyone asks I hold Thatcher every bit as responsible as Blair - this is non party political for me). I work for a pharmaceutical company and when we advertise for scientists or pharmacists we just don't get white brits applying.

 

I'll give you 2 reasons why this is for me: Money and Attitude

 

1) Money. It should be a national disgrace that good quality university physics and chemistry departments are closing. it should be a national disgrace that 1,000,000 kids are taught physics by a teacher with no physics qualification ( source of stats ) But it isn't. Lack of investment over the past 30 years has left the teaching of sciences in an absolute mess. It is an inescapable fact that it costs more for a child to gain a gcse in chemistry than in PE, but which is going to repay it's cost in a boost to british industry? I guess like many kids I was taught science (early 90s) in run-down class-rooms with ancient, out-of date equipment.

 

2) Attitude. There is a myth prevalent at all levels of education that all subjects are equal. They're not. Employers know it, experienced workers know it and I think deep down the pupils know it. And yet (and I'm talking mainly about uni here) we allow too many to take the easy way out. The reality is that a qualification in medicine, engineering or science is hard work. A lot harder than some poncy arts degree and a hell of a lot more useful, yet we allow too many people to waste three years gaining a worthless qualification.

 

The reason that Britain is having to rely on foreign nationals (and make no mistake about we'd be in a hell of a bigger mess if we kicked them all out) for our needs in medicine, science and engineering is because we are not producing home-grown talent with the right qualifications.

 

Rant over, I'm off down the pub...

 

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Originally Posted By: Andrew S


So what are you saying - there is no problem with the junior doctors situation and that the BMA know less what they are talking about than Patricia Hewitt who was forced to apologise and quit before she got the sack? (Gordon Brown apparently remarked in the week before he became PM " Do I have to sit here and let her lose me the next election", or words to that effect)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your point (2). The greater majority need to continue their training up to becoming a consultant or by moving into General Practice rather than leave medicine. The system was intended to shorten Doctors training from 14 years to 11, but they cut the budget so there were less jobs available when due to the changes it meant there were more applicants than normal to apply for them, so many who wanted to continue training still will be faced with taking a lesser job without any training, becoming a locum or to go to another country to complete their training. My point was why are we forcing people trained here out and recruiting doctors from overseas?


I am broadly agreeing with Simon..
I do not think its a disgrace that we have so many overseas workers in the NHS, I think its a natural by product of low pay and low esteem.
I do not think the BMAs stats are factually accurate...there are lies, lies and damn statistics after all...you can prove anything with statistics.
I do think there should be more jobs for doctors and less for managerial admin staff within the NHS

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Agree with Simon.

 

It's a disgrace that there is low pay and low esteem for our health professionals (and many others).

 

I do not know th esource of the BMA stats but they're probably more reliable than government figures.

 

Agree - more doctors and nurses, and more power i.e. decision making, to them, not to suit wearers.

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Some years back I was instructed to rescue a PFI contract in an outer London NHS hospital.

There were the usual problems of non-medical staff such as porters etc who were out of control due to bad management and a general lack of direction for technical Engineers etc.

The worst situation and happily not part of my remit was the ineffectiveness of the administration management and their arrogance towards medical and all other staff.

It is this very group that has been a growth business in the past ten years, they now appear to have the single task of making “target” figures look as if the Government reforms are succeeding (as if!!)

Engineers should manage Engineers, maintenance staff manages maintenance staff and most importantly nurses and Doctors must have an extended career path where they grow into executive management of health care.

How can we charge an escapee from the London School of Economics? With being executive management of NHS centres of health?

Train medical staff in to senior management roles.

 

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Originally Posted By: Simon BTFC
I don't think you should confuse the utter mess the government made of the reforms of the training of junior doctors with the "coming over here and taking our jobs" argument... There are something like 90,000 overseas trained doctors in the UK, kick them all out and you'd have a shortfall of 78000. I know that's a crude sum, but it brings me on to my main rant...


Actually, that is not the point I was making - I have no problem with overseas medical staff or plumbers for that matter, it is just the economic nonsense of training people here and having no jobs for them at the end, whilst continuing recruiting overseas. It is just a matter of balance - find jobs for the ones we train and then go recruit the rest we need, otherwise we are just spending shedloads of money in training and then chucking it, jobs and people's careers down the drain.

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what i object to is people coming into the country,living ten up in a squat,working for pittance and therefore pushing english workers out of business and then sending the wages back home to their families in poland or wherever they send them.

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Sounds like here, except the money goes back to Mexico or El Salvador. While they are here working tax free, most of them are also getting government benefits. Basically, what you see is someone driving to the shop in a car most of us will never be able to afford, wearing Tommy or other clothes most of us can't afford, then paying for their food with food stamps that those of us who have to pay taxes are funding. Then there are citizens who desperately need the help of food stamps or other benefits and can't get them for one trumped up reason or another.

 

I was happy when the bill they were trying to make into law to legalize millions of illegals (free to the illegals) was shot down. We paid our thousands for hubby to be here legally, Fleety paid his thousands, and both are from America's biggest allied nation.

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