3G Turf Pitches the way forward

[frustin]

I know this has been covered on other threads but with even more games being held up due to the bad weather this really is an option that clubs need to start looking into.

 

I know it comes with an initial heavy cost for installation but from what I can gather if it is used to its full potential can generate plenty of income to recover the initial cost and generate money.

 

What are people's thoughts regarding this and would there be anyone against it due to it not being a traditional grass surface?

Edited March 20, 2013 by frustin

[VPCTFC]

I'm not against it. It's purely down to cost that they won't come in en masse at our level.

The more of them there are in an area the less they'll generate as there'll be less demand for each one. In far flung areas it's fine but if, f'rinstance, Cove, Sandhurst, Camberley, Fleet, Farnborough, Aldershot and Ash all had one they'd all be struggling to get them used enough to cover costs. Locally, there are already 3G pitches at Ash Manor and Queens Avenue in Aldershot so it's not just other football clubs that you're competing for business with.

[danielpjn]

Some clubs would have an issue with usage in the evenings as well. Planning permission for floodlights can come with stipulations of a maximum number of evenings per week.

 

Long term I think they are a great idea,just a bit of a gamble at the moment for clubs in a very tough financial climate.

 

[Krooner]

I'm not against it. It's purely down to cost that they won't come in en masse at our level.

The more of them there are in an area the less they'll generate as there'll be less demand for each one. In far flung areas it's fine but if, f'rinstance, Cove, Sandhurst, Camberley, Fleet, Farnborough, Aldershot and Ash all had one they'd all be struggling to get them used enough to cover costs. Locally, there are already 3G pitches at Ash Manor and Queens Avenue in Aldershot so it's not just other football clubs that you're competing for business with.

 

I tend to disagree with that as I think even a huge number of them will do 2 things. 1 it will drive the price to hire down which means more people will use them and 2 it will dirve the cost of installing and maintianing them down as well because there will be plenty of work. All of the ones mentioned are fully booked and probably with a wiating list. For example at CTYFC we do not have enough slots locally and have to hire places in other boroughs that are not as good.

 

The one worry was when at Ash Manor on Monday it was flooded !!!!

[Krooner]

Some clubs would have an issue with usage in the evenings as well. Planning permission for floodlights can come with stipulations of a maximum number of evenings per week.

 

Long term I think they are a great idea,just a bit of a gamble at the moment for clubs in a very tough financial climate.

 

Yes to that Daniel but I think with lights coming online that have virtually no leakage so I think that can be overcome. I actually think it could be traffic issues that stifle a few.

[E&E Rich]

I tend to disagree with that as I think even a huge number of them will do 2 things. 1 it will drive the price to hire down which means more people will use them and 2 it will dirve the cost of installing and maintianing them down as well because there will be plenty of work. All of the ones mentioned are fully booked and probably with a wiating list. For example at CTYFC we do not have enough slots locally and have to hire places in other boroughs that are not as good.

 

The one worry was when at Ash Manor on Monday it was flooded !!!!

 

I thought that too, but right now the FA have six contacts (I was advised by a source at the FA) for 3g pitches, yet I don't see much change out of half a million for them. Even a 10% - 20% drop in costs would still be beyond most budgets. I fully agree though that the revenue should make it worthwhile in due course, it's just the initial outlay that is the problem.

[Non League Nigel]

Is it just me that is against them. Doesnt feel the same - the ball bounces differentley. I think they can cause a few injuries too

 

Also what if clubs did install them- would they be happy with loads of randoms during the week rummaging through their changing room and kit/ equipment supplies.

[Smudge]

We live in dreamland sometimes on this Forum,have you looked at the crowd stats lately,many clubs just about get enough through the gate to pay the Officials.So how would they be able to fund such facilities.Over to you.

[Krooner]

We live in dreamland sometimes on this Forum,have you looked at the crowd stats lately,many clubs just about get enough through the gate to pay the Officials.So how would they be able to fund such facilities.Over to you.

 

It becomes a community facility. So for example Camberley Town could install one and have aprtners involved (At least 4 decent size youth set ups in the same borough), Same with Cove, Farnborough etc.

 

I think it would have to be a full set up in terms of dressing rooms etc to try and allieviate the issues that NLN mentions in his post.

 

Just out of interest how do schools fund theirs when they are out in. Do you think they pay for it ?

[Smudge]

Always new Camberley were a stone rich Club,does a 3g not need planning permission first though?The locals would object for sure,extra traffic,noise,lights etc.No one ever complains about any plans,when they have the backing of the local authority,reason?

[Krooner]

Always new Camberley were a stone rich Club,does a 3g not need planning permission first though?The locals would object for sure,extra traffic,noise,lights etc.No one ever complains about any plans,when they have the backing of the local authority,reason?

 

Of course it does and just using an example. Perhaps I should have used the Arena alongside say Croydon Youth and Coulsdon colts ?

 

Of course the locals would object but that is the way of the world. There are some forward thinking councils out there though can see a bigger picture.

[Smudge]

Forward thinking Councils,well Croydon does not do Forward thinking.Their are plans in the pipeline though for a new Academy School to be built in close proximity to the Arena,but having been promised loads of major new improvements locally over the past 10 years,none of which have come to fruition,I will hold my breath.Anyway in the case of cost,I hope that all CCL Clubs drop their price of Beer by 1p per pint,when I next visit,that will certainly get more trade through the door.The Wife and a few Westfield fans,may see their Wine increased though.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Smudge

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

Having once played on a 3G pitch, it does knacker you and players can pick up injuries from playing on it.

 

However, I am not against change, and if it is (or can be) beneficial and not too costly for clubs then maybe it is the future.

[Savagebee]

I prefer grass pitches but i do think 3G pitches are the way forward for Non-League Football clubs especially for step 3,4,5,6 and 7 and below clubs.

[NCEL fan]

This is a topic every non league club should be discussing right now. I can think of numerous reasons why 3G pitches are the way forward, including;

 

- Income stream; ok there is a massive initial cost but through public/private partnership, there is always a way. The long term returns, if facilities are managed properly, should be significant provided the catchment area isn't overrun with 3G pitches. Football, Rugby, American Football, Touch Rugby, Ultimate Frisbee....the list of sports that can use the facility is endless, and with it the additional revenue opps on bar, food, sundries etc increase. At a guess this could bring in £3k a week in (40 slots a week @ peak time cost of £65 plus add revs)

 

- Cost savings; no outlay for training (at 1 session a week, costs can be £3-4k pa per team)

 

- Insurance against the British weather; difficult to put a figure on it but every game lost to the weather must cost NL clubs at least £1k (through the gate, over the bar, tea bar, fund raising etc).

 

- (For me, most importantly) Better football; The surfaces now are very similar to playing on a lush green surface at the start of the season. Players' touch and technical ability has to be better on 3G and as does their ability to pass the ball accurately. The technical deficiencies of the British game (yes we have unique bulldog qualities that shouldn't be undervalued but we are still too far behind the continent when it comes to control of that round thing) would be improved if more of our players were comfortable on 3G surfaces (as opposed to a surface that allowed you to stick it in the channel and hold up without running out of play - you lose the ball but gain territory which is all too much like Rugby for me).

 

You can pick holes in the finance assumptions all day but if clubs, councils, sports' bodies, the FA work together - 3G pitches can be the catalyst to improvements on and off the pitch, a step change perhaps only matched in history by the introduction of floodlights.

 

Come on people, do it, and do it now!

 

PS I have no personal investment in sports' facilities' business before you ask!

[chairman_afcca]

There are some aspects that need to be factored into the economics of moving to 3G (or inded 4G) and this doesn't relate to initial costs which may well be based on grants and partnerships etc. However, all pitches have a lifespan and will need replacing. The period may be 10 years but even then it would require a depreciation of between £30k-£50k a year to ensure that there was sufficient funds available to replace the pitch. The other issue is the advance of technology. A state of the art artificial pitch laid 10 years ago will now look very old and tired in terms of technology and that has the impact of reducing the value of your income from hires.

 

These are not reasons not to and I would imagine that where opportunities exist for clubs they will seize them. I am not opposed to them but if clubs want to avoid problems in years to come they need to make sure they examine all the economics of such a change.

[HKP]

Is there an issue with having that amound of markings on one pitch?

[NCEL fan]

There are some aspects that need to be factored into the economics of moving to 3G (or inded 4G) and this doesn't relate to initial costs which may well be based on grants and partnerships etc. However, all pitches have a lifespan and will need replacing. The period may be 10 years but even then it would require a depreciation of between £30k-£50k a year to ensure that there was sufficient funds available to replace the pitch. The other issue is the advance of technology. A state of the art artificial pitch laid 10 years ago will now look very old and tired in terms of technology and that has the impact of reducing the value of your income from hires.

 

These are not reasons not to and I would imagine that where opportunities exist for clubs they will seize them. I am not opposed to them but if clubs want to avoid problems in years to come they need to make sure they examine all the economics of such a change.

 

Valid points indeed - maintenance is not cheap either and annual FA inspections have to be undertaken above step 7. All part of the business plan though.

 

I used to train on one indoors 13 years ago and it was as good as any around today (though was probably twice the cost) but as you say, who knows what the future holds? That said, the key is that I feel it is now very close to the experience of playing on high quality grass pitches - Kenilworth Road, Deepdale and Loftus Road most certainly weren't!

Is there an issue with having that amound of markings on one pitch?

 

I was using other sports as examples for training purposes more than competitive games though dual use I guess has to be a consideration eg Guernsey FC and RFC

[Terrence Collina]

Ash Manor Leisure Centre charges £61 per hour no lights/£82 with for the full pitch.

 

http://www.guildfordspectrum.co.uk/content/view/201/236/

 

You would probably get at least 4 hourly sessions per night during GMT times and at those prices for 3 nights a week would turnover over £50k a year. Take into account use in the summer still for pre-season friendlies when the council do not allow their pitches to be used, so after 10 years (or the current lifespan of such a pitch), you would appear to get the investment back (less other expenses such as insurance and maintnenance etc).

 

Demand far exceeds supply at the moment and it would appear either the 5-a-side leagues or kids football gets first choice when booking.

[HKP]

Isn't the yearly maintenance quite high to? I seem to recall reading somewhere in the region of £30k?