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Chris Clapham

Step 5 Restructuring

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Don't think Dorking would want that.

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I've been following the debates on this issue on the nonleaguematters forum for a while now. As mentioned before the CCL could be disrupted by this or hopefully they will sort out some of the other leagues which aren't as well run. There are also rumours of there being NO relagtion from Step 4 this season as a precursor to all this. This would mean larger Step 4 leagues and therefore in theory more of a chance of promotion slots from Step 5 in the season after. Maybe we would have play-offs after all.

 

It would be extremely depressing if either the champions of the CCLP or the top sides in CCL1 are denied any promotion at the end of this season.

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I've been following the debates on this issue on the nonleaguematters forum for a while now. As mentioned before the CCL could be disrupted by this or hopefully they will sort out some of the other leagues which aren't as well run. There are also rumours of there being NO relagtion from Step 4 this season as a precursor to all this. This would mean larger Step 4 leagues and therefore in theory more of a chance of promotion slots from Step 5 in the season after. Maybe we would have play-offs after all.

 

It would be extremely depressing if either the champions of the CCLP or the top sides in CCL1 are denied any promotion at the end of this season.

 

Rumoured NO RELEGATION from Step 4?Are there that many Clubs going bust then,would I be right in thinking that if a step 5 club has the grading,they must surely be promoted,else it would make a mockery of the Pyramid system.Where did this rumour start and by whom.

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and i take ith the part in question is the changing rooms / car park issue

I think it is the walkway from the changing rooms to the pitch along with covered standing being required. Could be wrong

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There has been no suggestion that I am aware of, that normal promotion from Step 5 will not take place at the end of the season. The same is true of relegation from Step 4 although as we all know it never works as it should in theory.

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My view on this .......

It is unfair on those clubs who can come up... and it is wrong for clubs that are in the relegation zone not to go down ... irrespective of all the laws and rules as it should all be in place.... I know its harsh but it is only my view...

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Had some time to look at this with thoughts of how they might restructure to emilinate one league. The league that may go is what we currently consider our Combined Counties League.

 

Could we see the Combined Counties shift to a Surrey & Sussex link up? It may follow the current Hellenic League structure and may be as follows:

 

Combined Counties Prem (Including Sussex League)

Combined Counties Div 1 North (Including Sussex League)

Combined Counties Div 1 South (Including Sussex League)

Combined Counties Div 2 North (Including Sussex League)

Combined Counties Div 2 South (Including Sussex League)

 

Clubs will be devided into the other current leagues with some that do not have ground gradings etc be relegated.

 

The other leagues that could hold current CCL clubs may be:

 

Wessex Prem

Wessex Div 1 North

Wessex Div 1 South

 

Hellenic Prem

Hellenic Div 1 East

Hellenic Div 1 West

Hellenic Div 2 East

Hellenic Div 1 West

 

The Wessex and CCL/Sussex above are reconstructed.

 

I have tried to allocate clubs due to their areas as below:

 

Ash United (Wessex)

Bedfont Sports (Hellenic)

Badshot Lea (Wessex)

Bookham (Sussex)

Banstead Athletic (Sussex)

CB Hounslow United (Hellenic)

Camberley Town (Wessex)

Cobham (Hellenic)

Chessington & Hook United (Sussex)

Eversley (Wessex)

Colliers Wood United (Sussex)

Farleigh Rovers (Sussex)

Cove (Wessex)

Feltham (Hellenic)

Croydon (Sussex)

Frimley Green (Wessex)

Dorking (Sussex)

Guernsey (Sussex)

Egham Town (Hellenic)

Hartley Wintney (Wessex)

Epsom & Ewell (Sussex)

Knaphill (Hellenic)

Farnham Town (Wessex)

Sheerwater (Hellenic)

Guildford City (Wessex)

South Kilburn (Hellenic)

Hanworth Villa (Hellenic)

Spelthorne Sports (Hellenic)

Horley Town (Sussex)

Staines Lammas (Hellenic)

Mole Valley SCR (Sussex)

Warlingham (Sussex)

Molesey (Hellenic)

Westfield (Hellenic)

Raynes Park Vale (Sussex)

Worcester Park (Sussex)

Sandhurst Town (Hellenic)

South Park (Sussex)

Wembley (Hellenic)

Windsor (Hellenic)

 

 

I know it looks like there are a lot of teams to accomodate but there could be other qualifying factors for the constitution, maybe even 24 league spaces each division. I havent really done the full maths on this.

 

At the start of this thread CC said 'speculate' so that is what I have done.

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Wessex league. That was discussed a few years ago at Krooner and was decided it wouldnt be the right move for the club. I also wonder if groundsharing might become something you cannot do if they are looking to reduce the number of clubs. Just speculating of course.

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To add to your speculation,would it not be a great idea if the F.A.took the lead and expelled Bankrupt Clubs from reforming in the Football pyramid for 6 years.This would free up a few places.

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Liking your speculation Smudgey :)

And I know why that is mate.......

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Wessex league. That was discussed a few years ago at Krooner and was decided it wouldnt be the right move for the club. I also wonder if groundsharing might become something you cannot do if they are looking to reduce the number of clubs. Just speculating of course.

 

So Kroons, you really think the FA would happily kill clubs off just so that those that are left fit into neat little piles??

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Of course, The FA would never deliberately force clubs down the Pyramid.

 

However, they do wish to get the 14 Step 5 Leagues down to 12 if possible, either by merging Leagues or natural wastage (the Kent and Essex Leagues are very small, so if they get much smaller, a merger might be suggested).

 

Ground grading will be a factor, just as it was when Isthmian Division 2 was disbanded. Sharing is more common in the South-East because of the demand for housing, yet it is also the South-East that has the highest concentration of Step 5 Leagues. It might prove to be a factor in the long run...

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Of course, The FA would never deliberately force clubs down the Pyramid.

 

However, they do wish to get the 14 Step 5 Leagues down to 12 if possible, either by merging Leagues or natural wastage (the Kent and Essex Leagues are very small, so if they get much smaller, a merger might be suggested).

 

Ground grading will be a factor, just as it was when Isthmian Division 2 was disbanded. Sharing is more common in the South-East because of the demand for housing, yet it is also the South-East that has the highest concentration of Step 5 Leagues. It might prove to be a factor in the long run...

I totally get what you are saying Beano but IMHO the problem is at the other end of the pyramid.When altering/starting all of this the FA should have gone Conf -one div Bsq- 2 divsTHEN four divisions at step three, eight at step 4.At least this way you could have two up from each division,after all the football league div one has four relegation spots so why not non league.I know this would mean a massive upheaval of leagues but if it had been done right the first time a lot of this could have been avoided.

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It gets more interesting by the day !

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Of course, The FA would never deliberately force clubs down the Pyramid.

 

However, they do wish to get the 14 Step 5 Leagues down to 12 if possible, either by merging Leagues or natural wastage (the Kent and Essex Leagues are very small, so if they get much smaller, a merger might be suggested).

 

Ground grading will be a factor, just as it was when Isthmian Division 2 was disbanded. Sharing is more common in the South-East because of the demand for housing, yet it is also the South-East that has the highest concentration of Step 5 Leagues. It might prove to be a factor in the long run...

I totally get what you are saying Beano but IMHO the problem is at the other end of the pyramid.When altering/starting all of this the FA should have gone Conf -one div Bsq- 2 divsTHEN four divisions at step three, eight at step 4.At least this way you could have two up from each division,after all the football league div one has four relegation spots so why not non league.I know this would mean a massive upheaval of leagues but if it had been done right the first time a lot of this could have been avoided.

 

You're not the first person to suggest it Charlie, and you won't be the last. It would help to iron out some of the geographical oddities, but whether the Leagues will agree to it is a different matter.

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Firstly, this thing about relegation from Step 4. Why does it make any differeence? No clubs ever come down to our League anyway because of reprieves :(

 

On a more serious point though, if it were a simple matter of merging two leagues into one in two different places then this would have happened a long time ago. It clearly isn't as simple. So seeing as we're all speculating, here is my suggestion for getting from 14 to 12. Without doubt though, this whole thing is pointless unless you get the facility of four down from each of the six Step Four Leagues with two eligible to go up from each Step Five League.

 

South of Thames (ish): Merge Kent, Sussex, Combined Counties, and Wessex into three leagues and call them Southern Home Counties West, Central and East (or something better) with a similar division below them all at Step 6.

 

North of Thames (ish): Merge Hellenic, Spartan, Essex Senior and Eastern Counties into three leagues and call them Northern Home Counties West, Central and East (or something better) with a similar division below them all at Step 6. Maybe here the FA could trim the westernmost and easternmost teams if they felt this range was too far.

 

As Whitelaw says, we never get a full complement of fourteen teams going up currently, and with the usual reformed club situations happening too, then in practice most Step Four Leagues would probably only lose three down in reality. A way to soften that blow still further might be to increase the number of teams from 22 to 24 at Step Four. This would also mean a few less forced relegations to Step Six too, but inevitably there will be some. Personally, I think ground gradings should be waived for a year while all currently accepted step 5 clubs with a minimum grade F, (so Farnham may have to do some work) are told that 2012/13 will see clubs in the bottom six of their divisions potentially relegated. At least that way positions would be decided on the field.

 

Then from 2013/14 playoffs are introduced.

 

In terms of numbers in our area (ignoring the usual promotion and relegation places which would happen as usual), Kent have 16, we have 22, Sussex has 20 and Wessex has 22, making 80 in total. Move two of them up to Step Four, (with maybe even a playoff between the four league runners-up to achieve those two spots) and then create three 24 team leagues at Step Five. That is 74 of the 80 teams already catered for (24x3 + 2) so in reality you would probably only go down to step six if you finished in the bottom four of your league as opposed to the bottom three at the end of 2012/13. Then that goes back to three for future seasons.

 

Yes, this may mean Epsom find themselves in the Southern Home Counties League East Division One (or whatever it is called!) but if our clubs are hoping for step four football one day, then these are the journeys we'll have to make, and any decision needs to be made for the benefit of as many of the clubs as possible, not just the one I support. If we are to lose two leagues then travelling inevitably must increase anyway and that may be the price we pay for a competitive promotion and relegation structure.

 

One thing I haven't covered is administration of the leagues, but presumably it could be made up from the current officials of the four leagues that wish to remain involved. This isn't really in my remit so I won't go any further on this.

 

Any views?*

 

 

*Please note this is a sensible discussion so Nice Guy, don't bother.

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I think the FA have a plan in place already. The CCL will find out more on Sunday.

All step 5 league officers will be jockeying to retain their statuses for their leagues I am sure.

However, change is inevitable and clubs may have the opportunity to adopt or decline where they are placed should such changes be implemented.

The geographical issues here in the south east aren't as awkward as other parts of the country.

My gut feeling is that two pairs of leagues will merge; at least one pair will be local to us!

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2 points E&E Ed.

 

1) As you already allude to I can't see the Step 4 Leagues agreeing to 4 relegation slots just to allow 2 up from Step 5 Leagues - although their could be a trade off if extra promotion slots were made available Step 4 - Step 3 (which has a knock on effect further up the pyramid).

 

2) I've read elsewhere that the FA cannot "merge" Leagues - they can however dictate at what Step the League play and therefore Clubs that would be "relegated" if the FA downgraded their League would have to apply for membership of a higher League

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Oooooh !!! THE SUSPENSE !

 

Roll on the week-end.

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